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Archive-Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:20:29 +0200
Sender: owner-free-vms@lp.se
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:11:57 GMT
Message-ID: <96062516115688@procyon.ie>
From: roden_j@procyon.ie (John Roden, Procyon Informatics)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: VMS & Windows NT


Hi all,

Windows NT is designed on similar principles to MACH and it would be possible, in theory,
to build a VMS subsystem to work along side the existing Windows32 and Posix subsystems.

This should allow unmodified VMS/Alpha images to run on the Alpha version of Windows NT. 
It would even be possible to use VMS ODS-2 disks.

I seem to remember a rumor to the effect that DEC were working on something like this but 
I can't think where I heard it -- does anyone else have better information?

The NT route would give a huge boost to the Free VMS project although it would no longer 
qualify as totally free;  it might be more widely used however...

To evaluate this approach would require information on the kernel interface of Windows 
NT;  I'm not sure how this can be obtained or if it is available.  There is no hint of 
its existance in the Microsoft Developers Library.  Anyone else know?

John Roden
(j.roden@procyon.ie)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 00:53:30 +0200
Sender: owner-free-vms@lp.se
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:53:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Johnson <trn@gate.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
CC: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS & Windows NT
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960626174718.2128A-100000@bluebox.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 roden_j@procyon.ie wrote:

> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Windows NT is designed on similar principles to MACH and it 
> would be possible, in theory, to build a VMS subsystem to 
> work along side the existing Windows32 and Posix subsystems. 
> This should allow unmodified VMS/Alpha images to run on the 
> Alpha version of Windows NT.  It would even be possible to 
> use VMS ODS-2 disks. I seem to remember a rumor to the 

I wonder whether this would be possible on Intel systems also.

> effect that DEC were working on something like this but I 
> can't think where I heard it -- does anyone else have better 
> information? The NT route would give a huge boost to the Free 
> VMS project although it would no longer qualify as totally 
> free;  it might be more widely used however...  To evaluate 
> this approach would require information on the kernel interface 
> of Windows NT;  I'm not sure how this can be obtained or if 

There must be MS documentation on the subject.  I'm sure a main
reason that they designed the modular interface is to have
third part support for many OS emulations (such as the OS/2 1.3,
and an upcoming CP/M+ 3 emulation) to make NT a desireable
commercial multiuser server platform.

> it is available.  There is no hint of its existance in the 
> Microsoft Developers Library.  Anyone else know?

I have my Windows NT 4.0b2 Server CD, and it contains some
information.  If you would like, I can check through this and
see if it would be any help, because I believe there is a 
document concerning the kernel design and structure.

> John Roden
> (j.roden@procyon.ie)


--
Jeff Johnson               GCS d- s: !a C+++ UA++(+++) P+ L+
trn@gate.net               E---- W+++ N+++(+++++) K- w(+) O(-)
KE4QWX                     M- V-(--) PS+ PE Y++ PGP+++(+++++) t- 
http://www.gate.net/~trn   5 X+++(+++++) R tv+ b++ DI-- D G++ e* !h r y?
Nerdity Test = 66%         Hacker Test = 45%
1024/3397E001 1995/06/10   5B 92 8B 34 84 E9 42 26  DC FB F7 C4 1E 0E 80 29

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:58:12 +0200
Sender: owner-free-vms@lp.se
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 08:59:06 -0500 (EST)
From: "Andrew C. Stoffel (914) 574-4784" <acs@campus.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS & Windows NT
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
CC: ASTOFFEL@sunyrockland.edu
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960627085251.32308A-100000@RCCLNK.SUNYROCKLAND.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Jeff Johnson wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 roden_j@procyon.ie wrote:
> > free;  it might be more widely used however...  To evaluate 
> > this approach would require information on the kernel interface 
> > of Windows NT;  I'm not sure how this can be obtained or if 
> 
> There must be MS documentation on the subject.  I'm sure a main
> reason that they designed the modular interface is to have
> third part support for many OS emulations (such as the OS/2 1.3,
> and an upcoming CP/M+ 3 emulation) to make NT a desireable
> commercial multiuser server platform.
> > John Roden
> > (j.roden@procyon.ie)
> --
> Jeff Johnson               GCS d- s: !a C+++ UA++(+++) P+ L+

The "Inside Windows NT" book by Helen *?*  goes into GREAT (ie.
extensive) detail on such things... if anyone is interested I'll dig
up the ISBN, etc. on it tonight (it's at home).

Doing it in this fashion (much as Posix is done for NT) might open
this up to a broad range of hardware platforms since NT is available
for Intel, MIPS, PowerPC, Alpha, & probably other things...

(*The thought of a "FropenVMS" (Free OpenVMS) on my Powerbook 5300 is
very tempting *)

- -Andy-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Stoffel         Project Consultant            voice: (914) 574-4784
acs@campus.com       http://acs.sunyrockland.edu/  fax:   (914) 574-4354
Campus Consultants Group, Inc.                  A Campus America Company 
[******* PGP public key: http://acs.sunyrockland.edu/pubkey.txt *******]


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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:31:44 +0200
Sender: owner-free-vms@lp.se
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 9:32:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bob Koehler <KOEHLER@bessta.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <960627093234.52f@bessta.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE: VMS & Windows NT

>
>Windows NT is designed on similar principles to MACH and it would be possible, in theory,
>to build a VMS subsystem to work along side the existing Windows32 and Posix subsystems.
>
>
>John Roden
>(j.roden@procyon.ie)

 I believe there are already commercial product along this line, from the
 same vendors who support VMS porting libraries and tools under UNIX.  IMHO
 that proves the feasability of the concept, but perhaps not the details.

 For exmple, I've been told (not having a WNT system myself yet) that it's
 AST-like mechanism exhibits different behaviuor from VMS ASTs, this is
 something that one would have to account for.

Bob

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:21:57 +0200
Sender: owner-free-vms@lp.se
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:21:53 +0200
From: levitte@lp.se
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: free-vms@lp.se
Message-ID: <009A47FF.82290540.1@lp.se>
Subject: FWD: FreeVMS

Return-Path: <juengst@saph1.physik.uni-bonn.de>
Received: from saph1.physik.uni-bonn.de by nic.lp.se (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP;
          Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:30:30 +0200
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:24:44 +0200
Message-ID: <96062721244445@saph1.physik.uni-bonn.de>
From: juengst@saph1.physik.uni-bonn.de (H. J|ngst, ISKP, Bonn)
To: LEVITTE@lp.se
Subject: FreeVMS
X-VMS-To: LEVITTE@LP.SE

Hello,

  I have just seen that there is a FreeVMS project alive. Congratulations.
You can find some VMS related stuff via anonymous ftp at
boss1.physik.uni-bonn.de in the directory pub/dcl. Please, let me know
if you want further background informatation of this work.

I did not contribute this to the mailing list, because I do not have
enough time to follow any discussion there, but I hope this hint is
useful for the project.

Henry

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:01:04 +0200
Sender: owner-free-vms@lp.se
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:51:41 GMT
Message-ID: <96062914514114@procyon.ie>
From: roden_j@procyon.ie (John Roden, Procyon Informatics)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS & Windows NT

Answers to some points in replies from Jeff Johnson, Andy Stoffel & Bob 
Koehler:

> Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:53:59 -0400 (EDT)
> Jeff Johnson <trn@gate.net>
> I wonder whether this would be possible on Intel systems also.

Not without recompiling.  The code generation is the problem -- even with a 
version of the VMS susbsystem that worked on Intel (or PPC) there would be 
a problem with compilers.  This is the bugbear of all operating systems 
which run on several platforms:  you need a compiler (or at least a code 
generator like the DEC GEM) for each platform.  GNU C/C++ is the best 
current solution to most of this -- Linux being a good illustration of its 
usefulness.

> I have my Windows NT 4.0b2 Server CD, and it contains some
> information.

I've only got Windows NT Workstation (V4.0b2 also) which does not seem to 
have any descriptions of the kernel -- it would be very useful if you could 
check the server edition CD.

>  Thu, 27 Jun 1996 08:59:06 -0500 (EST)
>  Andy Stoffel <acs@campus.com> wrote:
>  The "Inside Windows NT" book by Helen *?*  goes into GREAT (ie.

Helen Custer's book is certainly the place to start in understanding WNT 
subsystems but it does not define the kernel interface at a level that 
would allow a subsystem to be written.

> Thu, 27 Jun 1996 9:32:34 -0400 (EDT) 
> Bob Koehler <KOEHLER@bessta.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> For exmple, I've been told (not having a WNT system myself yet) thatit's
> AST-like mechanism exhibits different behaviuor from VMS ASTs, this is
> something that one would have to account for.

A Windows NT subsystem is a sort of "personality layer" between the native 
services of the kernel and the processes which make use of it.  The 
subsystem creates the process memory space and its contents (i.e it maps 
the image(s) which is (are) about to run).  System services are handled in 
the first instance by code in the process space (placed there by the 
subsystem);  this code can call on the parent subsystem to further handle 
the service call.  If my understanding is correct, it should be possible to 
imitate the VMS behaviour of queued AST's but this obviously needs 
investigation...  Difficulties would arise with VMS programs which use 
privilaged access to the VMS executive -- it would be almost impossible to 
make sure that every executive data structure was in the expected location!



Regards
John Roden
(j.roden@procyon.ie)