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Archive-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:04:40 +0200
Sender: <owner-Free-VMS@lp.se>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:04:29 +0200
Message-ID: <4107-Fri03Oct199713:04:29+0200-levitte@lp.se>
From: Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker <levitte@lp.se>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Repeated messages...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Something happened with my mail queue, and seemed to generate a resend of
a bunch of old messages. If you got those too, I appologise.
--
R Levitte, Levitte Programming; Spannv. 38, I; S-161 43 Bromma; SWEDEN
Tel: +46-8-26 52 47; Cel: +46-708-20 09 64; No fax right now
PGP key fingerprint = A6 96 C0 34 3A 96 AA 6C B0 D5 9A DF D2 E9 9C 65
Check http://www.lp.se/~levitte for my public key. bastard@bofh.se
"price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:59:58 +0200
Sender: <owner-Free-VMS@lp.se>
Message-ID: <70A95474B7DCD011B58700805F14DD09FE7FDF@RED-70-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
From: Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: "'Free-VMS@lp.se'" <Free-VMS@lp.se>
Subject: RE: re:test
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:59:49 -0700
The BLISS sources should be on the VMS Freeware CD, so
you should be able to write your own Intel back-end.
Chris
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry W. Miller [SMTP:henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 2:15 AM
> To: Free-VMS@lp.se
> Cc: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV
> Subject: RE: re:test
>
> > From: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se" 29-SEP-1997 05:28:28.46
> > To: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se"
> > CC:
> > Subj: RE: re:test
> >
>
> On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:16:22 -0400, Dick Munroe <munroe@acornsw.com>
> said:
> Dick Munroe <munroe@acornsw.com> writes:
>
> Dick,
>
> > > Note: a number of years ago, DEC marketed a product called PC
> > >ALL-IN-One. Since A1 was written in BLISS for the most part, that
> would
> > >seem to imply to me that unless someone had rewritten A1 into a
> more
> > >generic language, there existed a BLISS compiler or cross-compiler
> for
> > >the Intel architecture that existed at that time, probably just the
> base
> > >808x processor. Either that, or there was a translator that
> coverted
> > >BLISS code to Fortran, C or something else. Does anyone have any
> > >information on that? Given the amount of available code for VMS
> that is
> > >written in BLISS, such a tool could be very useful. Note that I've
> got
> > >the source code for the PDP-11 BLISS compiler, but it's a
> cross-compiler
> > >that has to be built first on a PDP-10...
> > >
> > >-HWM
> >
> > And I had the source code (may still have) a version of Bliss-11
> that ran
> > on RSX-11M in native mode. Digital had it up and running and killed
> the
> > project before they could release the compiler; but thats another
> story for
> > another time...
> >
> > Dick
> >
> > p.s. If you take a look at the CLD via the VERB freeware for the
> Bliss
> > compiler on the freeware cds, you'll find a bunch of qualifiers for
> other
> > architectures. I've often wondered if these actually WORKED or of
> they
> > were just there for planning.
> >
>
> VERY interesting... But, for example, the command:
>
> $ BLISS/INTEL
>
> wants to invoke the image BLISS32IW.EXE, which was not
> installed, at least, with the installation of BLISS that I did. Are
> these cross compilers available anywhere?
>
> -HWM
>
> > --
> > Dick Munroe munroe@acornsw.com
> > Acorn Software (508) 568 1618 x1
> > 267 Cox St. FAX: 562 1133
> > Hudson, Ma. 01749 http://www.acornsw.com/
> >
> > Need a web site? a web server? other web service? Contact us...
> > "They told me to get Windows 3.1 or better so I bought a Macintosh!"
> > "Then they told me to get Windows 95 or better...so I bought another
> Mac!"
> > "Now they tell me to get Windows NT 4.0 Server or better...I've
> ordered
> > another Mac!"
> >
> >
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:10:15 +0200
Sender: <owner-Free-VMS@lp.se>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:08:44 -0700
From: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
CC: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV
Message-ID: <009BB4DD.9954FB2E.1@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV>
Subject: RE: re:test
> From: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se" 3-OCT-1997 15:08:33.99
> To: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se"
> CC:
> Subj: RE: re:test
>
On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:59:49 -0700, Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com> said:
Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com> writes:
Chris,
> The BLISS sources should be on the VMS Freeware CD, so
> you should be able to write your own Intel back-end.
>
All I could find is the source code for the BLISS-11 compiler -
is that what you were referring to?
> Chris
>
-HWM
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Henry W. Miller [SMTP:henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 2:15 AM
> > To: Free-VMS@lp.se
> > Cc: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV
> > Subject: RE: re:test
> >
> > > From: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se" 29-SEP-1997 05:28:28.46
> > > To: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se"
> > > CC:
> > > Subj: RE: re:test
> > >
> >
> > On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:16:22 -0400, Dick Munroe <munroe@acornsw.com>
> > said:
> > Dick Munroe <munroe@acornsw.com> writes:
> >
> > Dick,
> >
> > > > Note: a number of years ago, DEC marketed a product called PC
> > > >ALL-IN-One. Since A1 was written in BLISS for the most part, that
> > would
> > > >seem to imply to me that unless someone had rewritten A1 into a
> > more
> > > >generic language, there existed a BLISS compiler or cross-compiler
> > for
> > > >the Intel architecture that existed at that time, probably just the
> > base
> > > >808x processor. Either that, or there was a translator that
> > coverted
> > > >BLISS code to Fortran, C or something else. Does anyone have any
> > > >information on that? Given the amount of available code for VMS
> > that is
> > > >written in BLISS, such a tool could be very useful. Note that I've
> > got
> > > >the source code for the PDP-11 BLISS compiler, but it's a
> > cross-compiler
> > > >that has to be built first on a PDP-10...
> > > >
> > > >-HWM
> > >
> > > And I had the source code (may still have) a version of Bliss-11
> > that ran
> > > on RSX-11M in native mode. Digital had it up and running and killed
> > the
> > > project before they could release the compiler; but thats another
> > story for
> > > another time...
> > >
> > > Dick
> > >
> > > p.s. If you take a look at the CLD via the VERB freeware for the
> > Bliss
> > > compiler on the freeware cds, you'll find a bunch of qualifiers for
> > other
> > > architectures. I've often wondered if these actually WORKED or of
> > they
> > > were just there for planning.
> > >
> >
> > VERY interesting... But, for example, the command:
> >
> > $ BLISS/INTEL
> >
> > wants to invoke the image BLISS32IW.EXE, which was not
> > installed, at least, with the installation of BLISS that I did. Are
> > these cross compilers available anywhere?
> >
> > -HWM
> >
> > > --
> > > Dick Munroe munroe@acornsw.com
> > > Acorn Software (508) 568 1618 x1
> > > 267 Cox St. FAX: 562 1133
> > > Hudson, Ma. 01749 http://www.acornsw.com/
> > >
> > > Need a web site? a web server? other web service? Contact us...
> > > "They told me to get Windows 3.1 or better so I bought a Macintosh!"
> > > "Then they told me to get Windows 95 or better...so I bought another
> > Mac!"
> > > "Now they tell me to get Windows NT 4.0 Server or better...I've
> > ordered
> > > another Mac!"
> > >
> > >
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:11:06 +0200
Sender: <owner-Free-VMS@lp.se>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:58:52 -0400
Message-ID: <97100610585240@star.zko.dec.com>
From: parke@star.zko.dec.com (Pati die.)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: re:test
>The BLISS sources should be on the VMS Freeware CD, so
>you should be able to write your own Intel back-end.
>Chris
Sorry Chris, but as far as I know, the binaries only for
BLISS are on the freeware CD, not the sources.
Bill
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Parke, OpenVMS Engineering | 1. The only cheap page fault is none
parke@star.zko.dec.com | 2. Good software is unfat
Opinions stated are mine alone | 3. Software is the pane of our existance
and not Digital's | 4. It takes thought to right software
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:25:28 +0200
Sender: <owner-Free-VMS@lp.se>
Message-ID: <70A95474B7DCD011B58700805F14DD09FE7FEB@RED-70-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
From: Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: "'Free-VMS@lp.se'" <Free-VMS@lp.se>
Subject: RE: re:test
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:24:15 -0700
I thought BLISS32 was there as well. I could be wrong. You should send
mail to
denham@star.zko.dec.com and ask. She is the product manager for the
Freeware CD.
Chris
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry W. Miller [SMTP:henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV]
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 1997 6:09 AM
> To: Free-VMS@lp.se
> Cc: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV
> Subject: RE: re:test
>
> > From: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se" 3-OCT-1997 15:08:33.99
> > To: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se"
> > CC:
> > Subj: RE: re:test
> >
>
> On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:59:49 -0700, Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com>
> said:
> Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com> writes:
>
> Chris,
>
> > The BLISS sources should be on the VMS Freeware CD, so
> > you should be able to write your own Intel back-end.
> >
>
> All I could find is the source code for the BLISS-11 compiler -
> is that what you were referring to?
>
> > Chris
> >
>
> -HWM
>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Henry W. Miller [SMTP:henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 2:15 AM
> > > To: Free-VMS@lp.se
> > > Cc: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV
> > > Subject: RE: re:test
> > >
> > > > From: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se" 29-SEP-1997 05:28:28.46
> > > > To: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se"
> > > > CC:
> > > > Subj: RE: re:test
> > > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:16:22 -0400, Dick Munroe
> <munroe@acornsw.com>
> > > said:
> > > Dick Munroe <munroe@acornsw.com> writes:
> > >
> > > Dick,
> > >
> > > > > Note: a number of years ago, DEC marketed a product
> called PC
> > > > >ALL-IN-One. Since A1 was written in BLISS for the most part,
> that
> > > would
> > > > >seem to imply to me that unless someone had rewritten A1 into a
> > > more
> > > > >generic language, there existed a BLISS compiler or
> cross-compiler
> > > for
> > > > >the Intel architecture that existed at that time, probably just
> the
> > > base
> > > > >808x processor. Either that, or there was a translator that
> > > coverted
> > > > >BLISS code to Fortran, C or something else. Does anyone have
> any
> > > > >information on that? Given the amount of available code for
> VMS
> > > that is
> > > > >written in BLISS, such a tool could be very useful. Note that
> I've
> > > got
> > > > >the source code for the PDP-11 BLISS compiler, but it's a
> > > cross-compiler
> > > > >that has to be built first on a PDP-10...
> > > > >
> > > > >-HWM
> > > >
> > > > And I had the source code (may still have) a version of Bliss-11
> > > that ran
> > > > on RSX-11M in native mode. Digital had it up and running and
> killed
> > > the
> > > > project before they could release the compiler; but thats
> another
> > > story for
> > > > another time...
> > > >
> > > > Dick
> > > >
> > > > p.s. If you take a look at the CLD via the VERB freeware for the
> > > Bliss
> > > > compiler on the freeware cds, you'll find a bunch of qualifiers
> for
> > > other
> > > > architectures. I've often wondered if these actually WORKED or
> of
> > > they
> > > > were just there for planning.
> > > >
> > >
> > > VERY interesting... But, for example, the command:
> > >
> > > $ BLISS/INTEL
> > >
> > > wants to invoke the image BLISS32IW.EXE, which was not
> > > installed, at least, with the installation of BLISS that I did.
> Are
> > > these cross compilers available anywhere?
> > >
> > > -HWM
> > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dick Munroe munroe@acornsw.com
> > > > Acorn Software (508) 568 1618 x1
> > > > 267 Cox St. FAX: 562 1133
> > > > Hudson, Ma. 01749 http://www.acornsw.com/
> > > >
> > > > Need a web site? a web server? other web service? Contact us...
> > > > "They told me to get Windows 3.1 or better so I bought a
> Macintosh!"
> > > > "Then they told me to get Windows 95 or better...so I bought
> another
> > > Mac!"
> > > > "Now they tell me to get Windows NT 4.0 Server or better...I've
> > > ordered
> > > > another Mac!"
> > > >
> > > >
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:32:08 +0200
Sender: <owner-Free-VMS@lp.se>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:31:38 -0700
From: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
CC: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV
Message-ID: <009BB5DC.41A95014.37@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV>
Subject: RE: re:test
> From: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se" 6-OCT-1997 11:54:33.64
> To: MX%"Free-VMS@lp.se"
> CC:
> Subj: RE: re:test
>
On Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:24:15 -0700, Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com> said:
Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com> writes:
> I thought BLISS32 was there as well. I could be wrong. You should send
> mail to
> denham@star.zko.dec.com and ask. She is the product manager for the
> Freeware CD.
>
> Chris
>
Chris,
I'm sorry - my previous message was confusing. The VMS
installtion kits for BLISS-32 and BLISS-64, are on the CD-ROM, as are
the sources for BLISS-11. But, there is no source code for the upper
end BLISS compilers, and the BLISS-11 compiler is a cross-compiler that
runs on the PDP-10.
Maybe we need a Free-TOPS list to help bootstrap Free-VMS?
-HWM
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:04:41 +0200
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:54:35 -0400
Message-ID: <97101110543535@arisia.gce.com>
From: everhart@arisia.gce.com
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: re:test
The Bliss backend on VMS uses the GEM code generator, which DEC
certainly isn't likely to release at this time in source. So, sorry,
the backend isn't there, and it may be that the calls to the frone end are
oops, front end are considered sensitive too.
glenn
(These get censored off listing cd sets too.)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:24:43 +0200
From: kkaempf@progis.de (Klaus Kaempf)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <9710111644.AA11120@progis.de>
Subject: Re: BLISS backend
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:44:01 +0100 (MET)
In-Reply-To: <97101110543535@arisia.gce.com> from "everhart@arisia.gce.com" at Oct 11, 97 10:54:35 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> The Bliss backend on VMS uses the GEM code generator, which DEC
> certainly isn't likely to release at this time in source.
So we should decide if BLISS is really needed and write a frontend
to the GNU compiler if the answer is yes.
--
proGIS Software E-Mail: kkaempf@progis.de
Dipl.-Inform. Klaus K"ampf Fax: 0241-47067-29
Jakobstr. 117 Voice: 0241-47067-11
D-52064 Aachen WWW: http://www.progis.de
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:03:14 +0200
Message-ID: <70A95474B7DCD011B58700805F14DD0901256E8E@RED-70-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
From: Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: "'Free-VMS@lp.se'" <Free-VMS@lp.se>
Subject: RE: BLISS backend
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:02:50 -0700
Oh GOD... don't go there. You really don't want to try to do that - it
will get really ugly if you want to fully support Bliss32.
Chris
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kkaempf@progis.de [SMTP:kkaempf@progis.de]
> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 1997 9:44 AM
> To: Free-VMS@lp.se
> Subject: Re: BLISS backend
>
> >
> > The Bliss backend on VMS uses the GEM code generator, which DEC
> > certainly isn't likely to release at this time in source.
>
> So we should decide if BLISS is really needed and write a frontend
> to the GNU compiler if the answer is yes.
>
> --
> proGIS Software E-Mail: kkaempf@progis.de
> Dipl.-Inform. Klaus K"ampf Fax: 0241-47067-29
> Jakobstr. 117 Voice: 0241-47067-11
> D-52064 Aachen WWW: http://www.progis.de
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:08:13 +0200
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971013170801.0070508c@snake.srv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:08:01 -0600
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: RE: BLISS backend
At 09:02 AM 10/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Oh GOD... don't go there. You really don't want to try to do that - it
>will get really ugly if you want to fully support Bliss32.
>
>Chris
>
I don't know a lot about BLISS, but from what I've seen of it, it looks
like it has roots similiar to C. Wouldn't it be better to have a BLISS
to C translator for those programs that need it?
BLISS doesn't seem to have caught on in any big way, and if the code
were converted to C, and maintained in that form thereafter it would
probobly attract more people into the project (ie those who don't
want to learn a new language just to figure out one program),
and maybe allow existing BLISS programs to work in other enviornments.
If such programs as CMU/IP were translated to C, the pool of people
capable of maintaining/enhancing it would increase many times.
I know little of BLISS, and feel somewhat inadaquite to write such
a translator, but maybe someone else out there knows it well enough
to do a good job?
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Handy kth@srv.net Accounting Software for
Software Solutions. Inc. VAX/VMS Computer Systems
Idaho Falls, Idaho
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:04:49 +0200
Message-ID: <70A95474B7DCD011B58700805F14DD0901256E94@RED-70-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
From: Chris Kaler <ckaler@microsoft.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: "'Free-VMS@lp.se'" <Free-VMS@lp.se>
Subject: RE: BLISS backend
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:04:01 -0700
This is actually much harder than you might think.
In general, the language translation is easy. However, if you are
trying to convert stuff written by "real" Bliss programmers, you will
find it very hard. When we build the prototype we recoded much
of DCL parsing in C. There was one module, however, that was
very difficult to re-write on-the-fly (we did this recoding by having
one person, Bill, read the code from Bliss/Macro, and another
person, Me, write C). For much of the work - Image activation,
DCL parsing, ... it went well, but one module in DCL parse was
too complicated. We looked at and tried several converter tools,
but they all failed. In the end we cheated by creating a Bliss
listing file with VAX assembler and then converting the assembler
to UNIX syntax and compiling it that way since our prototype
was running on a VAX.
Some obvious elements that cause problems are global registers.
These are essentially module locals that get bound to specific
registers. This is complicated because you also have direct
register access. Volativity assumptions are also different in
Bliss and not all C compilers support the aggressive options
that Bliss uses. Finally, the Bliss macro processor is a language
in and of itself. Self-modifying macros are not uncommon in Bliss,
especially when dealing with item lists.
I would encourage folks to re-write things in C. Besides the
obvious support benefit, it ensures that some really understands
the code and the algorithm. For example, if we had managed to
convert the Bliss code in the DCL parser to C, I would have
found it very difficult to find any bugs. I also suspect that
complicated code will not translate well.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Handy [SMTP:kth@srv.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 13, 1997 10:08 AM
> To: Free-VMS@lp.se
> Subject: RE: BLISS backend
>
> At 09:02 AM 10/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >Oh GOD... don't go there. You really don't want to try to do that -
> it
> >will get really ugly if you want to fully support Bliss32.
> >
> >Chris
> >
> I don't know a lot about BLISS, but from what I've seen of it, it
> looks
> like it has roots similiar to C. Wouldn't it be better to have a BLISS
> to C translator for those programs that need it?
>
> BLISS doesn't seem to have caught on in any big way, and if the code
> were converted to C, and maintained in that form thereafter it would
> probobly attract more people into the project (ie those who don't
> want to learn a new language just to figure out one program),
> and maybe allow existing BLISS programs to work in other enviornments.
>
> If such programs as CMU/IP were translated to C, the pool of people
> capable of maintaining/enhancing it would increase many times.
>
> I know little of BLISS, and feel somewhat inadaquite to write such
> a translator, but maybe someone else out there knows it well enough
> to do a good job?
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin Handy kth@srv.net Accounting Software for
> Software Solutions. Inc. VAX/VMS Computer Systems
> Idaho Falls, Idaho