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Archive-Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:48:12 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:35:49 -0600
Message-ID: <00001A0D.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Was it Something I Said? (Was Re: DCL External commands)
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
Folks,
The list fell quiet again after the last couple of
exchanges.
Did I say/do something to put people off?
I know, I'd said that I would lay back until after the
New Year - maybe I should have.
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:52:28 +0100
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:52:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Was it Something I Said? (Was Re: DCL External commands)
In-Reply-To: <00001A0D.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981102115124.771C-100000@merlin>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Not that I know of ... mose of the gaffes have came from the vicinity of
146.115.234.58 <-- that's me :)
-----------
Regards,
Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
"TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal club, and it doesn't make
any difference if it takes a while to fix it."
-- Ken Olson, in Digital News, 1988
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, David Dachtera wrote:
> Folks,
>
> The list fell quiet again after the last couple of
> exchanges.
>
> Did I say/do something to put people off?
>
> I know, I'd said that I would lay back until after the
> New Year - maybe I should have.
>
> David J. Dachtera
> dba DJE Systems
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:07:28 +0100
To: <free-vms@lp.se>
Subject: Re: Was it Something I Said? (Was Re: DCL External commands)
Message-ID: <LEVITTE.98Nov3140619@nic.bofh.se>
From: levitte@lp.se (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: 03 Nov 1998 13:06:19 GMT
References: <00001A0D.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
In-Reply-To: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com's message of Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:35:49 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <00001A0D.C21492@advocatehealth.com> David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera) writes:
The list fell quiet again after the last couple of
exchanges.
Did I say/do something to put people off?
A friend of mine said something like this when this happened on
another list:
"Human psychology. After some heavy debates or discussions, there's
a time of rest and silence. Don't worry..."
And I guess all of us have other things to take care of as well... or
at least most of us...
--
R Levitte, Levitte Programming; Spannv. 38, I; S-168 35 Bromma; SWEDEN
Tel: +46-8-26 52 47; Cell: +46-708-20 09 64; Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24 BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key. levitte@lp.se
"price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:26:51 +0100
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:26:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: No activity ... :(
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981106122426.822A-100000@merlin.gnu-generation.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Nothing is sadder than returning after three days to an empty
mailbox. Especially after a bad week. :( C'mon, guys, there has to be
something to be said ... Okay, I'll try something:
Binary Format ... what? (DEC/ELF/a.out/...)
-----------
Regards,
Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
"TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal club, and it doesn't make
any difference if it takes a while to fix it."
-- Ken Olson, in Digital News, 1988
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:39:03 +0100
To: <free-vms@lp.se>
Subject: Re: No activity ... :(
Message-ID: <LEVITTE.98Nov10152423@nic.bofh.se>
From: levitte@lp.se (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: 10 Nov 1998 14:24:20 GMT
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981106122426.822A-100000@merlin.gnu-generation.org>
In-Reply-To: Noah Paul's message of Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:26:28 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.981106122426.822A-100000@merlin.gnu-generation.org> Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com> writes:
Nothing is sadder than returning after three days to an empty
mailbox.
So you mean this is the only thing you get mail from? Not like me,
getting whatever between 20 and 100 messages a day, huh? :-)
Especially after a bad week. :( C'mon, guys, there has to be
something to be said ... Okay, I'll try something:
Binary Format ... what? (DEC/ELF/a.out/...)
Good question. DEC's format could be used, since it, uhmm, works, at
least in current VMS. a.out isn't a very good option IMHO, but I may
be wrong. I know pretty little about ELF, but the little I've seen
made me think I'd already seen the corresponding features in VMS :-).
So, I see ELF as a possible option, perhaps with some extensions (I
think I remember seeing some space for extensions...).
The reason I don't jump and say "let's take DEC's format, of course!"
is that I'm not sure what level of paranoia DECompaq will show about
it. Annyone who knows? Chris, a guess?
Basically, I'd much prefer to use options that are fairly well-known,
spread, open, whenever there is such an option (yeah, I realise it's
not always a possibility).
This discussion could go to what format we could use to have indexed
files. I'm fairly sure DECompaq are relatively proective about that
one, or have I misinterpreted the situation? I'm pretty sure I have
seen mentions of "indexed file format secrecy" in comp.os.vms...
Side-note:
I've finally ordered a PC that will be delivered to me at the end of
next week. Apart from have GameOS (winblows 98, probably) on one
small partition (whatever is considered small on a 8GB disk :-)), I'll
have a pretty large part where I'll play with HURD or something else
Mach-based...
--
R Levitte, Levitte Programming; Spannv. 38, I; S-168 35 Bromma; SWEDEN
Tel: +46-8-26 52 47; Cell: +46-708-20 09 64; Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24 BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key. levitte@lp.se
"price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:26:07 +0100
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:27:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: No activity ... :(
In-Reply-To: <LEVITTE.98Nov10152423@nic.bofh.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981110152221.4156A-100000@merlin.gnu-generation.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.981106122426.822A-100000@merlin.gnu-generation.org> Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com> writes:
>
> Nothing is sadder than returning after three days to an empty
> mailbox.
>
> So you mean this is the only thing you get mail from? Not like me,
> getting whatever between 20 and 100 messages a day, huh? :-)
>
Well, generally I get around 8-12, but that day, no. However, in
the past I've often gotten some little gem from this group ...
>
> Especially after a bad week. :( C'mon, guys, there has to be
> something to be said ... Okay, I'll try something:
>
> Binary Format ... what? (DEC/ELF/a.out/...)
>
> Good question. DEC's format could be used, since it, uhmm, works, at
> least in current VMS. a.out isn't a very good option IMHO, but I may
> be wrong. I know pretty little about ELF, but the little I've seen
> made me think I'd already seen the corresponding features in VMS :-).
>
You can get ELF info from http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP, I think
(Linux Doc Project). I don't know about a.out. Where can you get DEC's
specs?
ELF = New, larger (than a.out), UNIX, standard in Linux,
probably portable.
a.out = Very compact, old, UNIX
>
> So, I see ELF as a possible option, perhaps with some extensions (I
> think I remember seeing some space for extensions...).
>
> The reason I don't jump and say "let's take DEC's format, of course!"
> is that I'm not sure what level of paranoia DECompaq will show about
> it. Annyone who knows? Chris, a guess?
>
DEC probably wouldn't have cared, but I don't know about Compaq.
>
> Basically, I'd much prefer to use options that are fairly well-known,
> spread, open, whenever there is such an option (yeah, I realise it's
> not always a possibility).
>
ELF fits these criteria.
>
> This discussion could go to what format we could use to have indexed
> files. I'm fairly sure DECompaq are relatively proective about that
> one, or have I misinterpreted the situation? I'm pretty sure I have
> seen mentions of "indexed file format secrecy" in comp.os.vms...
>
> Side-note:
> I've finally ordered a PC that will be delivered to me at the end of
> next week. Apart from have GameOS (winblows 98, probably) on one
> small partition (whatever is considered small on a 8GB disk :-)), I'll
> have a pretty large part where I'll play with HURD or something else
> Mach-based...
>
Unless you're a rabid Unix-hater, try Linux.
Unless you're a rabid Unix-hater, you'll like it.
There's a Mach Linux (MkLinux), but I don't know how well it runs
portably, (I've only seen it run on a Mac, and I dunno if it works
anywhere else), and how good it is (the mac version sucked.)
>
> --
> R Levitte, Levitte Programming; Spannv. 38, I; S-168 35 Bromma; SWEDEN
> Tel: +46-8-26 52 47; Cell: +46-708-20 09 64; Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
> PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24 BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
> http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key. levitte@lp.se
>
> "price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:46:14 +0100
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:46:26 +1100
From: "Scott Hamilton, +61-2-9950 1693, NSW Dept Education and Training" <SHAMILTON1@dev.develop1.tafensw.edu.au>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: executable image formats...
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <01J41K5G8YQQ001WRE@hmgwy1.isd.tafensw.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Since the OpenVMS executable format is documented for anyone with a few
dollars to spend on the IDSM and there is a description in the Linker Utility
Manual, Chapter 3 Understanding Image File Creation, I've never read that
chapter completely since I'd read the IDSM first, so I think it's fair game...
Also for your edification there are two useful appendices in the same manual,
Appendix A VAX Object Language
Appendix B Alpha Object Language
Enjoy
Scott, Esq.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I can't stand this proliferation of paperwork. It's useless to fight
the forms. You've got to kill the people producing them."
-- Vladimir Kabaidze, 64, General Director of Ivanovo Machine Building Works
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:04:23 +0100
To: <free-vms@lp.se>
Subject: Re: No activity ... :(
Message-ID: <LEVITTE.98Nov11000228@nic.bofh.se>
From: levitte@lp.se (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: 10 Nov 1998 23:02:28 GMT
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981110152221.4156A-100000@merlin.gnu-generation.org>
In-Reply-To: Noah Paul's message of Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:27:27 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.981110152221.4156A-100000@merlin.gnu-generation.org> Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com> writes:
a.out = Very compact, old, UNIX
IIRC, a.out format is a straight memory dump. Keeps it in the old Unix
philosophy: to keep it simple.
Unless you're a rabid Unix-hater, try Linux.
I was a rabid Unix-hater (I still own The Unix-Hater's Handbook).
Unless you're a rabid Unix-hater, you'll like it.
You don't need to preach to me at least. Apart from VMS, I've
tinkered with SunOS (4), Linux (at least RedHat and Slackware), *BSD
(at least Net and Open), and a few more I don't even remember.
There's a Mach Linux (MkLinux), but I don't know how well it runs
portably, (I've only seen it run on a Mac, and I dunno if it works
anywhere else), and how good it is (the mac version sucked.)
Whatever. What interests me is Mach, starting to play with it, and
that it will work on my machine. And probably with Flux (mentioned
briefly some time ago) as well, just to see how it could fit.
--
R Levitte, Levitte Programming; Spannv. 38, I; S-168 35 Bromma; SWEDEN
Tel: +46-8-26 52 47; Cell: +46-708-20 09 64; Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24 BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key. levitte@lp.se
"price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:24:44 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:17:49 -0600
Message-ID: <0000823D.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: "Portable" Binaries???!!!
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
In the current thread re: low activity on this list,
mention was made of the ELF binary format being
"portable".
At the risk of sounding stupid, could someone please
explain the concept of "portable" as it pertains to
binaries?
To me, "portable" means I can take the same (source) code
and compile/link it on:
o multiple o.s.-es on the same machine
o the same o.s. on multiple CPUs (VAX, Alpha, Intel,
Motorola, etc.)
I doubt that "portable binaries" would fit into either of
those categories. The only exceptions I am aware of are:
o the provisions in FreeBSD to run Linux executables
o DOS emulation for Linux/*BSD
o Windows API support for Linux (WINE, WABI)
o Intel emulation for Win/NT-Alpha
What am I missing here?
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:04:49 +0100
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:02:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Jerrold Leichter <leichter@smarts.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: "Portable" Binaries???!!!
In-Reply-To: <0000823D.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.02A.9811110946190.17015-100000@just>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
| In the current thread re: low activity on this list,
| mention was made of the ELF binary format being
| "portable".
|
| At the risk of sounding stupid, could someone please
| explain the concept of "portable" as it pertains to
| binaries?
|
| To me, "portable" means I can take the same (source) code
| and compile/link it on:
|
| o multiple o.s.-es on the same machine
This is among the possibilities. Note that Linux running on SPARC, say, will
execute Solaris binaries unchanged.
| o the same o.s. on multiple CPUs (VAX, Alpha, Intel,
| Motorola, etc.)
This one is fairly unlikely.
| I doubt that "portable binaries" would fit into either of
| those categories. The only exceptions I am aware of are:
|
| o the provisions in FreeBSD to run Linux executables
And conversely.
| o DOS emulation for Linux/*BSD
|
| o Windows API support for Linux (WINE, WABI)
|
| o Intel emulation for Win/NT-Alpha
|
| What am I missing here?
Another level of portability is API portability: The ELF format is the same
across all machines, even though the *actual machine code instructions*
differ. Tools that look at the structure and format of the file, as opposed
to the details of the instructions, may be portable. Thus, an object file
dumper (ANALYZE/OBJ or ANALYZE/EXE on VMS) could be portable - it doesn't dig
deeply enough into the file to care what the actual instructions are. Much of
a debugger could be portable - e.g., locating the address corresponding to a
given symbol, or the source line corresponding to a given PC, has nothing to
do with how the value at that address (just a number, after all) is repre-
sented or what's at that PC. (Sure, at some level, a debugger has to deal
with the actual instruction stream. But compare it to a compiler: There's a
"front end" that reads ELF - or some similar format - and a "back end" that
deal with machine representation. The "front end" is "language" dependent,
but machine independent.)
What you can do for a debugger, you can also do for a linker. Much of what a
linker does involves simply *copying* machine code from place to place, and
has nothing to do with what the machine code means or does. Again, at some
level, a linker has to deal with real machine code - e.g., to apply a
relocation. But that can often be isolated.
Actually, the Unix object (and executable - Unix implementations have used the
same representations from both for many years) formats have been fairly
portable in this sense for a long time. The Unix linker doesn't get re-
written for every new implementation - a few low-level routines get written
for the new architecture, and the bulk of the implementation stays exactly the
same. This has been the case for a *long* time.
Actually, you can even add a level of abstraction above the various object
file formats and hide their differences. The Gnu people have done this; they
have a library for manipulating binaries. Here's the overview:
BFD is a package which allows applications to use the same routines
to operate on object files whatever the object file format. A new
object file format can be supported simply by creating a new BFD back
end and adding it to the library.
BFD is split into two parts: the front end, and the back ends (one
for each object file format).
* The front end of BFD provides the interface to the user. It manages
memory and various canonical data structures. The front end also
decides which back end to use and when to call back end routines.
* The back ends provide BFD its view of the real world. Each back
end provides a set of calls which the BFD front end can use to
maintain its canonical form. The back ends also may keep around
information for their own use, for greater efficiency.
...
What BFD Version 2 Can Do
=========================
When an object file is opened, BFD subroutines automatically
determine the format of the input object file. They then build a
descriptor in memory with pointers to routines that will be used to
access elements of the object file's data structures.
As different information from the the object files is required, BFD
reads from different sections of the file and processes them. For
example, a very common operation for the linker is processing symbol
tables. Each BFD back end provides a routine for converting between
the object file's representation of symbols and an internal canonical
format. When the linker asks for the symbol table of an object file, it
calls through a memory pointer to the routine from the relevant BFD
back end which reads and converts the table into a canonical form. The
linker then operates upon the canonical form. When the link is finished
and the linker writes the output file's symbol table, another BFD back
end routine is called to take the newly created symbol table and
convert it into the chosen output format.
There are limits to what such a library can do, since different object formats
may contain different information; but it can be surprisingly powerful.
-- Jerry
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:28:29 +0100
To: <free-vms@lp.se>
Subject: Re: "Portable" Binaries???!!!
Message-ID: <LEVITTE.98Nov11172225@nic.bofh.se>
From: levitte@lp.se (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: 11 Nov 1998 16:22:25 GMT
References: <0000823D.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
In-Reply-To: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com's message of Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:17:49 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <0000823D.C21492@advocatehealth.com> David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera) writes:
In the current thread re: low activity on this list,
mention was made of the ELF binary format being
"portable".
Note that here, you've talked about binary *format*.
At the risk of sounding stupid, could someone please
explain the concept of "portable" as it pertains to
binaries?
... and here, you've talked about *binaries*
Since when are binary formats and binaries the same thing?
--
R Levitte, Levitte Programming; Spannv. 38, I; S-168 35 Bromma; SWEDEN
Tel: +46-8-26 52 47; Cell: +46-708-20 09 64; Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24 BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key. levitte@lp.se
"price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:59:48 +0100
From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <199811111518.KAA27824@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: "Portable" Binaries???!!!
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:18:27 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <0000823D.C21492@advocatehealth.com> from "David Dachtera" at Nov 11, 98 10:17:49 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In the current thread re: low activity on this list,
> mention was made of the ELF binary format being
> "portable".
>
> At the risk of sounding stupid, could someone please
> explain the concept of "portable" as it pertains to
> binaries?
>
> To me, "portable" means I can take the same (source) code
> and compile/link it on:
>
> o multiple o.s.-es on the same machine
>
> o the same o.s. on multiple CPUs (VAX, Alpha, Intel,
> Motorola, etc.)
You're right on on these.
>
> I doubt that "portable binaries" would fit into either of
> those categories. The only exceptions I am aware of are:
>
> o the provisions in FreeBSD to run Linux executables
>
> o DOS emulation for Linux/*BSD
>
> o Windows API support for Linux (WINE, WABI)
>
> o Intel emulation for Win/NT-Alpha
>
> What am I missing here?
>
> David J. Dachtera
> dba DJE Systems
>
There's the IBCS2 Intel binary standard that lets AT&T SRV4 run
SCO Unix and Xenix binaries... also this should let Solaris for x86
run them. (This is also supported in some of the *BSD's)
NetBSD/OpenBSD can run SunOS and Solaris binaries.
All in all it's about the same thing you say.
Running Intel on Mips would require an Intel emulator -- not portable
binaries. The instruction set must be the same.
Bill
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com |
| Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in |
| a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:13:45 +0100
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:15:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: "Portable" Binaries???!!!
In-Reply-To: <199811111518.KAA27824@shell.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981111111424.3917A-100000@merlin.gnu-generation.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
regarding iBCS: If anyone's interested in iBCS info, I can send them Linux
iBCS source.
-----------
Regards,
Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
Zero return on many stocks.
-- Cause of the Great Depression in 1926.
"return(0);"
-- Line 1926 of PDP-11/40 UNIX source code. Coincidence?
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote:
> >
> > In the current thread re: low activity on this list,
> > mention was made of the ELF binary format being
> > "portable".
> >
> > At the risk of sounding stupid, could someone please
> > explain the concept of "portable" as it pertains to
> > binaries?
> >
> > To me, "portable" means I can take the same (source) code
> > and compile/link it on:
> >
> > o multiple o.s.-es on the same machine
> >
> > o the same o.s. on multiple CPUs (VAX, Alpha, Intel,
> > Motorola, etc.)
>
> You're right on on these.
>
> >
> > I doubt that "portable binaries" would fit into either of
> > those categories. The only exceptions I am aware of are:
> >
> > o the provisions in FreeBSD to run Linux executables
> >
> > o DOS emulation for Linux/*BSD
> >
> > o Windows API support for Linux (WINE, WABI)
> >
> > o Intel emulation for Win/NT-Alpha
> >
> > What am I missing here?
> >
> > David J. Dachtera
> > dba DJE Systems
> >
>
> There's the IBCS2 Intel binary standard that lets AT&T SRV4 run
> SCO Unix and Xenix binaries... also this should let Solaris for x86
> run them. (This is also supported in some of the *BSD's)
>
> NetBSD/OpenBSD can run SunOS and Solaris binaries.
>
> All in all it's about the same thing you say.
>
> Running Intel on Mips would require an Intel emulator -- not portable
> binaries. The instruction set must be the same.
>
> Bill
>
>
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com |
> | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in |
> | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller |
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:28:26 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:13:48 -0600
Message-ID: <00008B1A.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re[2]: "Portable" Binaries???!!!
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
(Pardon my playing "Devil's Advocate" here...)
Richard Levitte writes:
>Since when are binary formats and binaries the same
>thing?
I wasn't sure how to answer that initially. After reading
the other responses to date, I can sum it up this way:
As a phrase, the words "portable binaries" represent a
"genre", if you will. For example (within the limits of
my understanding):
.ZIP files are, by nature, "binary". They are portable in
so much as you can unpack the archive on any machine
supported by either PKware or Info-Zip. The "gotcha" is
that ASCII files will be more than meaningless on an
EBCDIC machine (and vice-versa), if that's where you
unpack the archive, unless you have utilities to convert
them.
.%LB files would be usable by any utility which can
understand the associated format. The usefulness of the
files in the libraries then comes into question.
.EXEs, on the other hand, are semi-meaningless on any CPU
other than the one for which it was compiled and linked.
The format of the .EXE file may allow examination of its
contents on any hardware/o.s. which supports that format
and it's associated utilities. Actually running the
program, except for its intended target environment (and
those which emulate it), is pretty much out of the
question.
Likewise, .OBJs are "target specific", unless you're
cross-compiling, as in compiling for Alpha on a VAX
machine (or vice-versa).
Jerry made mention of debuggers and such. However, unless
you can actually run the program on the substitute host,
I'm still at a loss to understand the value of a portable
format for .EXEs because, to my admittedly limited
understanding, in order for that portability to have any
meaning, the substitute host must have at least the same
feature set as the native environment. That means, for
example (again, within the limits of my understanding), a
FreeVMS program cannot run in any environment lacking the
appropriate support (RMS, SMG, RTL, LIB, etc.). Given
that, then, why is it important for a FreeVMS .EXE to be
"portable" to any o.s. other than FreeVMS (and
vice-versa)?
Consider: even if the Linux or *BSD "cat" program binary
could be run under FreeVMS, would it contain the code
necessary to understand the RMS format, or to call those
routines which provide such support? Could it find
"stdout" (SYS$OUTPUT)?
Flip-side of the coin: If the FreeVMS "TYPE.EXE" program
could be run on another o.s., either directly or using a
loadable module for *BSD or Linux, would it be able to
handle the absence of RMS? How would the $OPEN function
work? Would it know that SYS$OUTPUT is really the
"stdout" stream?
Would not "portability" be better addressed at the source
code level?
I know - this seems rather fundamental to the "gurus" on
the list. I'm just wondering if this is important, or if
its just something that would be nice, but we can live
without it. After all, even VEST has its limits, as does
dosemu, WINE, WABI, not to mention those DOS programs
which are so DOS-dependent that they can't be run on NT
in DOS mode.
Perhaps we could use ELF as a model, even a standard,
with the understanding that the program cannot run
without the required external support.
...or am I entirely off-track with this?
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:42:54 +0100
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:42:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Jerrold Leichter <leichter@smarts.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[2]: "Portable" Binaries???!!!
In-Reply-To: <00008B1A.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.02A.9811111734170.17015-100000@just>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
| Jerry made mention of debuggers and such. However, unless
| you can actually run the program on the substitute host,
| I'm still at a loss to understand the value of a portable
| format for .EXEs because, to my admittedly limited
| understanding, in order for that portability to have any
| meaning, the substitute host must have at least the same
| feature set as the native environment. That means, for
| example (again, within the limits of my understanding), a
| FreeVMS program cannot run in any environment lacking the
| appropriate support (RMS, SMG, RTL, LIB, etc.). Given
| that, then, why is it important for a FreeVMS .EXE to be
| "portable" to any o.s. other than FreeVMS (and
| vice-versa)?
You're missing the point. Someone already drew the distinction between
portable binary *files* and portable binary file *formats*. It's the latter
that you could have with something like ELF. Any given ELF file only works on
a machine with the "right" kind of CPU (or an emulator). Any given compiled
version of the debugger is one such ELF file: It runs on exactly one kind of
CPU, and only does useful things when applied to other executables created for
exactly that CPU. That's because almost everything a debugger does for you is
inherently machine specific. For debuggers, the only direct gainers are
debugger *developers*, since they can write much - usually most - of the
debugger in a portable fashion: While almost all the visible actions of a
debugger are machine specific, most of the internal support operations are
machine-independent.
Other kinds of utilities don't need to look at the details much, or at all. An
ANALYZE/IMAGE-like tool tells you about the *structure* of an image, not about
its contents. It list sections and their status, shareable images the image
requires, and so on. It really doesn't care whether the contents of those
sections are VAX instructions, Alpha instructions, x86 instructions - or
random noise. If such a program were written for ELF files, it would
generally work even for ELF files intended for CPU's other than the one on
which the displayer were running. (There could be problems with big- versus
little-endianess and such, but a format could easily be defined that made that
explicit, so that a program like the displayer could make the appropriate
adjustments.)
-- Jerry
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:01:47 +0100
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:01:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19981111220309.24c7db3a@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[2]: "Portable" Binaries???!!!
FWIW...
The thought struck me that one of my examples may contain the germ of an idea:
There are, for the FreeBSD and Linux kernels, "loadable" modules providing
interoperability between the two similar but different o.s.-es.
Now, I grant you - a FreeVMS "loadable module" would amount to, well, rather
a large "module" ... and the appropriate support functions (ODS-2, etc.)
would still be needed as would run-time libraries (RMS, RTL, LIB, etc.) for
those images which are "dynamically linked". Still, might that be a place to
start from rather than the way that the *BSD/Linux situation evolved? Almost
sounds like "the cart before the horse", or is it a "chicken and egg" type
of quandry?
In such case, a portable binary format (yes, I understand the difference)
might be of greater value.
...and then again, maybe not. I dunno. Whaddaya think?
David J. Dachtera,
dba DJE Systems
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:48:08 +0100
Message-ID: <007301be0e11$3623c7a0$1204a8c0@klausk.ditech.de>
From: "Klaus Kaempf" <Klaus.Kaempf@DITECH.DE>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: <Free-VMS@lp.se>
Subject: Re: executable image formats...
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:49:30 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Also for your edification there are two useful appendices in the same
manual,
>
>Appendix A VAX Object Language
>Appendix B Alpha Object Language
>
Forget the VAX object language, it depends heavily on RMS records and isn't
transferable via a binary stream (i.e. ftp) The Alpha object language
corrects
this but still depends much on the alpha architecture. As a starting point,
code
for handling the alpha object language is in the bfd library (part of gnu
binutils).
Klaus
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:14:39 +0100
Message-ID: <19981112111156.4404.qmail@hotmail.com>
From: "Steve Lindsey" <stevelindsey@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: newsgroup
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 03:11:56 PST
I'm not aware if this has been asked before but here goes.
Is it not possible, and would it be preferred, for this mail list was
turned into a news group. IMHO it would make the threads easier to
follow, especially as mail often arrives out of order.
Steve Lindsey
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:10:25 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:10:17 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199811121310.FAA18366@kjsl.com>
From: Javier Henderson <javier@kjsl.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <19981112111156.4404.qmail@hotmail.com>
References: <19981112111156.4404.qmail@hotmail.com>
Steve Lindsey writes:
> Is it not possible, and would it be preferred, for this mail list was
> turned into a news group. IMHO it would make the threads easier to
> follow, especially as mail often arrives out of order.
It would make sense for this mailing list to be part of the
vmsnet hierarchy, I think. However, this would increase the chances
that those who post will get their email address harvested by would-be
spammers.
Now, I've been posting to vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.multinet for
a while from my work address (javier@network-alchemy.com) and I've yet
to get a single piece of spam at that address. Maybe the vmsnet
hierarchy is not deemed worthy by the address harvesters.
-jav
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:53:58 +0100
Message-ID: <364AF62B.6417B35A@net-link.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:52:27 -0500
From: "Todd C. Campbell" <toddc@net-link.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: newsgroup
References: <19981112111156.4404.qmail@hotmail.com> <199811121310.FAA18366@kjsl.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Javier Henderson wrote:
> It would make sense for this mailing list to be part of the
> vmsnet hierarchy, I think. However, this would increase the chances
> that those who post will get their email address harvested by would-be
> spammers.
I would assume, we could setup a news server or add a "private" group
to a news server....
I think I offered this up before, I'm sure my bosses still wouldn't mind.
I also recall Richard saying that he could offer the same.
-Todd
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:31:16 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:31:09 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199811121531.HAA18867@kjsl.com>
From: Javier Henderson <javier@kjsl.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <364AF62B.6417B35A@net-link.net>
References: <19981112111156.4404.qmail@hotmail.com> <199811121310.FAA18366@kjsl.com> <364AF62B.6417B35A@net-link.net>
Todd C. Campbell writes:
> I would assume, we could setup a news server or add a "private" group
> to a news server....
We could.
> I think I offered this up before, I'm sure my bosses still wouldn't mind.
> I also recall Richard saying that he could offer the same.
I run my own news server, I'll be happy to help. It'd be great
if we could have more than one server anyways, perhaps one in Europe
and one in the US to start with. I'm in Santa Cruz, CA.
-jav
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:29:40 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:29:29 +0100 (CET)
From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker <levitte@lp.se>
CC: free-vms@lp.se
Subject: Re: DCL Internal commands
In-Reply-To: <LEVITTE.98Oct26070914@nic.bofh.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981112165537.28650D-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sorry for long reaction time, you know: if I have
been swaped out... -;(
On 26 Oct 1998, Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote:
+In article [cut] <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> writes:
+
+ On 23 Oct 1998, Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker <levitte@lp.se> wrote:
[cut]
+ Hm... may be a idea of "signalled mode", rather than "real
+ processor mode" to properly separate the SUPERVISOR/USER mode
+ run and get the proper work for b.ex.
+
+ $ define/user SYS$OUTPUT whatyouwill
+ $ define/user SYS$ERROR other
+ $ SHOW TRANS SYS$DISK
+ $ X:=S*
+ $ SHOW USER 'X' ! Where is affected by the DEF/USER !
+
+Yes? I don't see the problem with that one (hint: SHOW TRANS runs the
+cliroutine SHOWTRAN and is thusly internal to DCL...).
Errr.. Richard, do you suspect I know not about this ? I mean
this a example, what must be carefully checked to get proper work !
And in addition to the thread and the complication in
compatibility problem. This point I write not to Richard,
but all where will say "no problem, we can emulate *all*
behavior using model with multiple servers and separate spaces":
it may be possible, but much harder than look first time...
To contens:
Most of writers here was *wrongly* suggest, that user mode
logicals (in general: object, may be b.ex. memory section)
will die after image execution. This refers *only* to abject in
private process space. Object in shared space are "temporary"
or "permanent", and only the first can die as a "automatic"
result of image termination (all connected). Logical name
(yes, this isn't "very typical VMS object") in shared
table will *not* die. Anyone can check with DEF/USER/JOB,
and I have at least one old program where define system
logical name in user mode (haven't check the time, where
write it and in past have see that this is proper -;)).
May a code like this work or no ? If yes, the server
must know about four mode of objects and classify it
as private/system/global and (separately) permanent/temporary...
Ufff... ! Possible -:)
The proper "mentional shortcut" may be from other Richard
post (compliment -;) !):
>Actually, the address space issue is not relevant at all. What is
>relevant is that logicals in "user space" should die and disappear
>after an image exit.
...as other private, user mode object (programically available !) also.
+ "price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
Right -:) But.. formule please... -;> (excuse me, what is the
proper form of "formula" ? -:()
Windows are well known from (relatively to b.ex. VMS)
low price and low performance. What we can think of (in
relation to VMS, of course...) quality ?!!
Regards - Gotfryd
--
=====================================================================
$ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") -
THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME
$! GS@stanpol.zabrze.pl
=====================================================================
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:15:38 +0100
To: <free-vms@lp.se>
Subject: Re: newsgroup
Message-ID: <LEVITTE.98Nov12190453@nic.bofh.se>
From: levitte@lp.se (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: 12 Nov 1998 18:04:53 GMT
References: <19981112111156.4404.qmail@hotmail.com> <199811121310.FAA18366@kjsl.com><364AF62B.6417B35A@net-link.net>
In-Reply-To: "Todd C. Campbell"'s message of Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:52:27 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <364AF62B.6417B35A@net-link.net> "Todd C. Campbell" <toddc@net-link.net> writes:
I think I offered this up before, I'm sure my bosses still wouldn't mind.
I also recall Richard saying that he could offer the same.
I actually already run the newsgroup as a list (free-vms.misc) and
have done so for a long time. The newsgroup hierarchy is free-vms.*,
this list is free-vms.misc.
For now, I'm not feeding free-vms.misc anywhere, but I can start doing
that anytime.
There's one problem, through, and it's that the mailing list requires
that you're subscribed to it to post to it. So, if someone finds this
newsgroup and isn't subscribed to the underlaying mailinglist, those
who only get the mails will not see that post. I'm not sure I want to
relieve the restrictions on the mailing list... And I do not think I
want to give up the mailing list either.
--
R Levitte, Levitte Programming; Spannv. 38, I; S-168 35 Bromma; SWEDEN
Tel: +46-8-26 52 47; Cell: +46-708-20 09 64; Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24 BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key. levitte@lp.se
"price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:15:43 +0100
To: <free-vms@lp.se>
Subject: Re: DCL Internal commands
Message-ID: <LEVITTE.98Nov12191114@nic.bofh.se>
From: levitte@lp.se (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: 12 Nov 1998 18:11:14 GMT
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981112165537.28650D-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>
In-Reply-To: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists"'s message of Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:29:29 +0100 (CET)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.981112165537.28650D-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl> "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> writes:
(I'll comment the rest of your post later, when I'm less stressed...)
+ "price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
Right -:) But.. formule please... -;> (excuse me, what is the
proper form of "formula" ? -:()
Windows are well known from (relatively to b.ex. VMS)
low price and low performance. What we can think of (in
relation to VMS, of course...) quality ?!!
Simple, think "good" instead of "low". Unfortunately, Winblows is a
failure with this formula. It has a good (low) price, but bad (low)
quality and bad (low) performance.
(If anyone thinks I state any opinion than my own, think again)
--
R Levitte, Levitte Programming; Spannv. 38, I; S-168 35 Bromma; SWEDEN
Tel: +46-8-26 52 47; Cell: +46-708-20 09 64; Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24 BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key. levitte@lp.se
"price, performance, quality. Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:40:02 +0100
Message-ID: <19981122163924.A15594@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:39:24 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Account on VMS machine
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary=gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy
--gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
I'd like to help the Free-VMS project. I've had a look at some VMS-related
stuff, and it looks pretty cool. The only problem, is that I've never used
VMS before. It would be good if someone could let me have an account on one
of their VMSen, so I could get the hang of it. Any offers?
--=20
Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System
-*- Klamath - Free Unix accounts for everyone -*-
-*- Data: +44 (0)1865 454802 - UK - 9600bps - 8N1 -*-
--gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:37:18 +0100
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:36:04 -0600 (MDT)
From: David Richardson <DRICHARDSON@EDMA.AVC.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Employer/employee agreements
To: Free-VMS@lp.se, dave.richardson@avc.ab.ca, _drichardson@EDMA.AVC.CALGARY.AB.CA
Message-ID: <01J4JZV096J60034CM@AVC.CALGARY.AB.CA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Are there any sample agreements that could be used to ensure that code
developed on an employers system can be donated to the project? I thought I'd
seen one on Richards system but I can't find it right now.
In my case we have the CSLG licenses available, so a sample that includes a
section that limits the employee's actions to non-commercial code would be
welcome.
David Richardson
Senior Analyst
Alberta Vocational College - Edmonton
DRichardson@EDMA.AVC.Calgary.AB.CA
"OpenVMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT v8.0 to be!"
- 22-Sep-1998 at www.openvms.digital.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:53:55 +0100
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:54:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
CC: dave.richardson@avc.ab.ca, _drichardson@EDMA.AVC.CALGARY.AB.CA
Subject: Re: Employer/employee agreemen
In-Reply-To: <01J4JZV096J60034CM@AVC.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981124164830.2591A-100000@gandolf.ma.ultranet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
There's one in the GNU GPL. (Very simple).
I think have it ... search, search ... yes, here it is:
<your company here> hereby disclaims all copyright
interest in the program <your program> (<short
description>) written by <your name>
<signature of whoever> <date>
<whoever>
-----------------
Regards,
Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
"They're just jealous because they don't have three wise men
and a virgin in the whole organization."
- Mayor Vincent J. Cicani on the ACLU's suit to remove
a city nativity scene.
~
~
---INSERT---
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, David Richardson wrote:
> Are there any sample agreements that could be used to ensure that code
> developed on an employers system can be donated to the project? I thought I'd
> seen one on Richards system but I can't find it right now.
>
> In my case we have the CSLG licenses available, so a sample that includes a
> section that limits the employee's actions to non-commercial code would be
> welcome.
>
> David Richardson
> Senior Analyst
> Alberta Vocational College - Edmonton
>
> DRichardson@EDMA.AVC.Calgary.AB.CA
>
> "OpenVMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT v8.0 to be!"
> - 22-Sep-1998 at www.openvms.digital.com
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:01:03 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981130160056.007a68a0@pop.ultranet.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:00:56 -0800
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: noahp@altavista.net
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: C'mon guys.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Silence ...
-----------------
Regards,
Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
"They're just jealous because they don't have three wise men
and a virgin in the whole organization."
- Mayor Vincent J. Cicani on the ACLU's suit to remove
a city nativity scene.
~
~
-- INSERT --
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:50:22 +0100
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:50:12 -0500
From: trn@waea.trn.nu
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: C'mon guys.
Message-ID: <19981130165012.A28033@waea.trn.nu>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
References: <3.0.6.32.19981130160056.007a68a0@pop.ultranet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981130160056.007a68a0@pop.ultranet.com>; from noahp@altavista.net on Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 04:00:56PM -0800
--AqsLC8rIMeq19msA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I hate silence. :(
On Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 04:00:56PM -0800, noahp@altavista.net wrote:
> Silence ...
>=20
> -----------------
> Regards,
> Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
> "They're just jealous because they don't have three wise men
> and a virgin in the whole organization."
> - Mayor Vincent J. Cicani on the ACLU's suit to remove
> a city nativity scene.
> ~
> ~
> -- INSERT --
--=20
Jeff Johnson - http://scrollz.trn.nu, trn@trn.nu
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:58:04 +0100
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19981130220810.008f4cb4@snake.srv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:08:10 -0700
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: C'mon guys.
At 04:00 PM 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Silence ...
>
FWIW: I've placed new versions of str.tgz and btran.tgz on my
web page. Mostly has bug fixes, removal of several warning errors,
and a few enhancements.
http://srv.net/~kth
Still has several warning errors in str.tgz that I haven't fixed
yet (width/parameter passing warnings mostly). It works ok even with
the warnings.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Handy kth@srv.net Accounting Software for
Software Solutions. Inc. VAX/VMS Computer Systems
Idaho Falls, Idaho