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Archive-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:10:11 +0100
Message-ID: <19981201101004.455.qmail@hotmail.com>
From: "Steve Lindsey" <stevelindsey@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: wendin pcvms
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 02:10:03 PST

Awhile back somebody wrote that they had a copy of this. I too have a an 
original set of disks and the docs unfortunately i have 5 1/4 floppies, 
a guess what, no drive. Is it possible to get a fresh copy from whoever 
it is that has them?
Regards
Steve Lindsey

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:28:11 +0100
From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <199812011327.IAA11207@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:27:14 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19981201101004.455.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Steve Lindsey" at Dec 1, 98 02:10:03 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> 
> Awhile back somebody wrote that they had a copy of this. I too have a an 
> original set of disks and the docs unfortunately i have 5 1/4 floppies, 
> a guess what, no drive. Is it possible to get a fresh copy from whoever 
> it is that has them?
> Regards
> Steve Lindsey

Unfortunately, I couldn't find my set.  I do have a machine with
5 1/4 floppies if you need me to copy them over.

Bill

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        |
|   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in  |
|  a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                         | 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:21:48 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:13:05 -0600
Message-ID: <00017011.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

   Steve,
   
   I still support 5.25 inch diskettes. What can I do to 
   help?
   
   David J. Dachtera
   dba DJE Systems
   


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: wendin pcvms
Author:  Free-VMS@lp.se at PO_EXTERNET
Date:    12/1/98 4:10 AM


Awhile back somebody wrote that they had a copy of this. I too have a an 
original set of disks and the docs unfortunately i have 5 1/4 floppies, 
a guess what, no drive. Is it possible to get a fresh copy from whoever 
it is that has them?
Regards
Steve Lindsey
   
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:46:08 +0100
From: "Martin Hein" <Martin.Hein@maxmobil.at>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <C12566CD.0050F210.00@maxmobil.at>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:45:04 +0100
Subject: Antwort: Re: wendin pcvms
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Hi,

Perhaps it's possible to get a copy of PC VMS as well, 'cause I'm really
nosy to check it out!

Thanx,
Martin





"Bill/Carolyn Pechter" <pechter@shell.monmouth.com> am 01.12.98 14:27:14

Bitte antworten an Free-VMS@lp.se

An:    Free-VMS@lp.se
Kopie:  (Blindkopie: Martin Hein/maxmobil/AT)
Thema: Re: wendin pcvms




>
> Awhile back somebody wrote that they had a copy of this. I too have a an
> original set of disks and the docs unfortunately i have 5 1/4 floppies,
> a guess what, no drive. Is it possible to get a fresh copy from whoever
> it is that has them?
> Regards
> Steve Lindsey

Unfortunately, I couldn't find my set.  I do have a machine with
5 1/4 floppies if you need me to copy them over.

Bill

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-+
| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com
|
|   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in
|
|  a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller
|
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-+






================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:19:01 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:09:20 -0600
Message-ID: <000177EF.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: DELTREE (Oh, no! Not again!)
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

   Folks,
   
   I just discovered that Hunter Goatley has a DELTREE 
   program on his FILESERV site. The URLs are:
   
   http://www2.wku.edu/www/fileserv/fileserv.html
   http://www2.wku.edu/www/fileserv/fileserv-software.html
   http://www2.wku.edu/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?DELTREE
   ftp://ftp.wku.edu/vms/fileserv/DELTREE.ZIP
   
   DELTREE is written in C, is apparently rather old (circa. 
   1992) and seems to have been re-submitted this past 
   month.
   
   Might make a good addition to the "stable". C programmers 
   who are inclined to hack may want to find and remove the 
   existing limitations, and possibly port it to Gnu-C for 
   VAX and Alpha.
   
   Thought you'd want to know.
   
   David J. Dachtera
   dba DJE Systems
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:55:32 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981201175530.007b2a50@pop.ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:55:30 -0800
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: noahp@altavista.net
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
In-Reply-To: <00017011.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Any chance this can get on Richard's ftp site? Richard?

At 10:13 AM 12/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
>   Steve,
>   
>   I still support 5.25 inch diskettes. What can I do to 
>   help?
>   
>   David J. Dachtera
>   dba DJE Systems
>   
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: wendin pcvms
>Author:  Free-VMS@lp.se at PO_EXTERNET
>Date:    12/1/98 4:10 AM
>
>
>Awhile back somebody wrote that they had a copy of this. I too have a an 
>original set of disks and the docs unfortunately i have 5 1/4 floppies, 
>a guess what, no drive. Is it possible to get a fresh copy from whoever 
>it is that has them?
>Regards
>Steve Lindsey
>   
>______________________________________________________ 
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:58:12 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981201175812.0079d8d0@pop.ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:58:12 -0800
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: noahp@altavista.net
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
In-Reply-To: <00017011.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

About ftp site:

	Wendin PC VMS is no longer a product. Maybe six months ago, I contacted
	the author and forwarded the mail to this list. The archive should
	contain his email address.

At 10:13 AM 12/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
>   Steve,
>   
>   I still support 5.25 inch diskettes. What can I do to 
>   help?
>   
>   David J. Dachtera
>   dba DJE Systems
>   
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: wendin pcvms
>Author:  Free-VMS@lp.se at PO_EXTERNET
>Date:    12/1/98 4:10 AM
>
>
>Awhile back somebody wrote that they had a copy of this. I too have a an 
>original set of disks and the docs unfortunately i have 5 1/4 floppies, 
>a guess what, no drive. Is it possible to get a fresh copy from whoever 
>it is that has them?
>Regards
>Steve Lindsey
>   
>______________________________________________________ 
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 00:26:30 +0100
From: Cenobite <cenobite@the.satanic.org>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <199812012326.PAA07286@the.satanic.org>
Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:26:21 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981201175812.0079d8d0@pop.ultranet.com> from "noahp@altavista.net" at Dec 1, 98 05:58:12 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


> 	Wendin PC VMS is no longer a product. Maybe six months ago, I contacted
> 	the author and forwarded the mail to this list. The archive should
> 	contain his email address.

I remember seeing this product at a Computer Faire ages and ages ago 
(like circa 80286). They had the source code for the scheduler up on
the screen and were running several concurrent processes, which was
far beyond the capabilities of MS-DOS at the time. I'm not sure that 
given how old the code base is that it's too relevant to a modern 
FreeVMS project. Oh, by the way, I've got an itty-bitty VAXstation 
3100 that I'm going to be putting online soon that would be ideal for 
this sort of madness...

Henry B. Messenger             "One way or another, this darkness got
 http://satanic.org/~cenobite   to give."
                                 - Robert Hunter, "New Speedway Boogie"
                                     


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:56:38 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981203155619.007aa2e0@pop.ultranet.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 15:56:19 -0800
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: noahp@altavista.net
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I would be willing to do this, if someone can point me to a
VMS System Call reference ...

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 01:45:37 +0100
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:43:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19981203184820.274fa574@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX

Noah,

Try the documentation page on Richard's FreeVMS site. He has links to .PDF
versions of the System Services and Utility routines manuals.

Let me know if you need a .PDF reader for VMS. I know where to get a fairly
decent one, but I'll need to look at work for it.

David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems

At 03:56 PM 12/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I would be willing to do this, if someone can point me to a
>VMS System Call reference ...
>
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:50:02 +0100
Message-ID: <3667F9B9.ABBF509D@acornsw.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:05:17 -0500
From: Dick Munroe <munroe@acornsw.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
References: <3.0.6.32.19981203155619.007aa2e0@pop.ultranet.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B2FCBEC37D3400B0418BE072"

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noahp@altavista.net wrote:

> I would be willing to do this, if someone can point me to a
> VMS System Call reference ...

Take a look at the system services manual.  I've got the OpenVMS doc set
online at:

    http://www.acornsw.com/book

and you can find this particular manual at:

http://www.acornsw.com/htbin/hyperreader?file=disk$vaxdocdec971:[opsys.vmsos71]ovms_71_sysserv_ref.bkb&title=System%20Services%20Reference&referer=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2eacornsw%2ecom%2fbook

Dick Munroe



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adr;dom:;;267 Cox St.;Hudson;Ma;01749;
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email;internet:munroe@acornsw.com
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--------------B2FCBEC37D3400B0418BE072--

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:31:43 +0100
From: "Harald Droste" <hdrsoft@gc-system.de>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: <Free-VMS@lp.se>
Subject: RE: wendin pcvms
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:32:23 +0100
Message-ID: <000101be1fd5$fc1237a0$69020a80@haralddroste>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In-Reply-To: <199812012326.PAA07286@the.satanic.org>

Dear all,

I'm sure, I _do_ have a copy of Wendin's Suite, ie. "DOS", "UNIX", "VMS",
and "Developer Pack" which I happily would contribute, if (a) I'll find it
among tons of old 5.25" disks (but the odds are like it) and (b) the
copyright issues have been sorted out. It was a Xmas present I made myself
ages ago; but don't expect too much: The kernel was Wendin DOS - a MS DOS
re-write with a build-in TopView clone, just the DCL i/f, but no ASTs, XQP,
QIOs, and the like, just X86/DOS INTs; that's how I came to get 4DOS, but
that's another story...

Harald Droste


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cenobite [mailto:cenobite@the.satanic.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 12:26 AM
> To: Free-VMS@lp.se
> Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
>
>
>
> > 	Wendin PC VMS is no longer a product. Maybe six months
> ago, I contacted
> > 	the author and forwarded the mail to this list. The
> archive should
> > 	contain his email address.
>
> I remember seeing this product at a Computer Faire ages and ages ago
> (like circa 80286). They had the source code for the scheduler up on
> the screen and were running several concurrent processes, which was
> far beyond the capabilities of MS-DOS at the time. I'm not sure that
> given how old the code base is that it's too relevant to a modern
> FreeVMS project. Oh, by the way, I've got an itty-bitty VAXstation
> 3100 that I'm going to be putting online soon that would be ideal for
> this sort of madness...
>
> Henry B. Messenger             "One way or another, this darkness got
>  http://satanic.org/~cenobite   to give."
>                                  - Robert Hunter, "New
> Speedway Boogie"
>
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 05:19:36 +0100
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:19:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah Paul <noahp@ultranet.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
In-Reply-To: <199812012326.PAA07286@the.satanic.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981205211850.2235B-100000@gandolf.ma.ultranet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

(about the MicroVax): Could I get an account on it? I'm in search of a VAX
to use. I need to learn more VMS and test the code I write for it.

-----------------
Regards,
Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
	"They're just jealous because they don't have three wise men
and a virgin in the whole organization."
		- Mayor Vincent J. Cicani on the ACLU's suit to remove
		  a city nativity scene.

PGP Public Key (4096 bit):	http://130.64.182.90/~noahp/Public_Key
When you first download my public key, please send it to me via email so I can
confirm it.

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Cenobite wrote:

> 
> > 	Wendin PC VMS is no longer a product. Maybe six months ago, I contacted
> > 	the author and forwarded the mail to this list. The archive should
> > 	contain his email address.
> 
> I remember seeing this product at a Computer Faire ages and ages ago 
> (like circa 80286). They had the source code for the scheduler up on
> the screen and were running several concurrent processes, which was
> far beyond the capabilities of MS-DOS at the time. I'm not sure that 
> given how old the code base is that it's too relevant to a modern 
> FreeVMS project. Oh, by the way, I've got an itty-bitty VAXstation 
> 3100 that I'm going to be putting online soon that would be ideal for 
> this sort of madness...
> 
> Henry B. Messenger             "One way or another, this darkness got
>  http://satanic.org/~cenobite   to give."
>                                  - Robert Hunter, "New Speedway Boogie"
>                                      
> 
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:21:19 +0100
Sender: john
Message-ID: <366A2254.2BE8EF34@guntersville.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 00:21:08 -0600
From: "John C. Ellingboe" <john@guntersville.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981205211850.2235B-100000@gandolf.ma.ultranet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Noah Paul wrote:
> 
> (about the MicroVax): Could I get an account on it? I'm in search of a VAX
> to use. I need to learn more VMS and test the code I write for it.
> 
> -----------------
> Regards,
> Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
>         "They're just jealous because they don't have three wise men
> and a virgin in the whole organization."
>                 - Mayor Vincent J. Cicani on the ACLU's suit to remove
>                   a city nativity scene.
> 
>

I will be puting a VAX online for the use of The Free VMS Project
sometime soon.  I am sure that we can setup an account for you and any
others that will need it.  It may be that I can have a mVAX II for
general use and another for software testing.  I will post to the list
when it is ready for use.

John
www.guntersville.net

>
> PGP Public Key (4096 bit):      http://130.64.182.90/~noahp/Public_Key
> When you first download my public key, please send it to me via email so I can
> confirm it.
> 
> On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Cenobite wrote:
> 
> >
> > >     Wendin PC VMS is no longer a product. Maybe six months ago, I contacted
> > >     the author and forwarded the mail to this list. The archive should
> > >     contain his email address.
> >
> > I remember seeing this product at a Computer Faire ages and ages ago
> > (like circa 80286). They had the source code for the scheduler up on
> > the screen and were running several concurrent processes, which was
> > far beyond the capabilities of MS-DOS at the time. I'm not sure that
> > given how old the code base is that it's too relevant to a modern
> > FreeVMS project. Oh, by the way, I've got an itty-bitty VAXstation
> > 3100 that I'm going to be putting online soon that would be ideal for
> > this sort of madness...
> >
> > Henry B. Messenger             "One way or another, this darkness got
> >  http://satanic.org/~cenobite   to give."
> >                                  - Robert Hunter, "New Speedway Boogie"
> >
> >
> >
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:49:01 +0100
Message-ID: <19981206164838.A605@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:48:38 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
References: <2.2.16.19981203184820.274fa574@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary=sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19981203184820.274fa574@earthlink.net>; from David J. Dachtera on Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 04:43:15PM -0800


--sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 04:43:15PM -0800, David J. Dachtera wrote:
>
> At 03:56 PM 12/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >I would be willing to do this, if someone can point me to a
> >VMS System Call reference ...
> >
> >
> >
>=20
> Noah,
>=20
> Try the documentation page on Richard's FreeVMS site. He has links to .PDF
> versions of the System Services and Utility routines manuals.
>=20
> Let me know if you need a .PDF reader for VMS. I know where to get a fair=
ly
> decent one, but I'll need to look at work for it.

I'd not mind helping both of you here .. any idea if there's a PDF reader
for UNIX? (Linux/68k).

>=20
> David J. Dachtera
> dba DJE Systems

--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

--sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:49:11 +0100
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:49:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
In-Reply-To: <19981206164838.A605@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981206104835.3665A-100000@gandolf.ma.ultranet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Check out the standard Linux archives for the sources to one. 68k could
be a major PITA though, especially you can't find a free one.

-----------------
Regards,
Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
	"They're just jealous because they don't have three wise men
and a virgin in the whole organization." - Mayor Vincent J. Cicani on the 
	ACLU's suit to remove a city nativity scene.

PGP Public Key: 		http://130.64.182.90/~noahp/Public_Key
4096-bit Public Key:		http://130.64.182.90/~noahp/Public_Key.4096

On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Edward John M. Brocklesby wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 04:43:15PM -0800, David J. Dachtera wrote:
> >
> > At 03:56 PM 12/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
> > >I would be willing to do this, if someone can point me to a
> > >VMS System Call reference ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > Noah,
> > 
> > Try the documentation page on Richard's FreeVMS site. He has links to .PDF
> > versions of the System Services and Utility routines manuals.
> > 
> > Let me know if you need a .PDF reader for VMS. I know where to get a fairly
> > decent one, but I'll need to look at work for it.
> 
> I'd not mind helping both of you here .. any idea if there's a PDF reader
> for UNIX? (Linux/68k).
> 
> > 
> > David J. Dachtera
> > dba DJE Systems
> 
> -- 
> 
> Edward John M. Brocklesby
> System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System
> 
> | Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
> | Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:33:57 +0100
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19981206204354.0091d710@snake.srv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:43:54 -0700
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX

At 04:48 PM 12/6/98 +0000, you wrote:
>On Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 04:43:15PM -0800, David J. Dachtera wrote:
>> 
>> Try the documentation page on Richard's FreeVMS site. He has links to .PDF
>> versions of the System Services and Utility routines manuals.
>> 
>> Let me know if you need a .PDF reader for VMS. I know where to get a fairly
>> decent one, but I'll need to look at work for it.
>
>I'd not mind helping both of you here .. any idea if there's a PDF reader
>for UNIX? (Linux/68k).

My RedHat Linux system came with xpdf, pdftops, and pfttotext programs.
The man page for xpdf refers to http://www.aimnet.com/~derekn/xpdf/
Says that it runs under Unix, VMS, and OS/2.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Handy  kth@srv.net         Accounting Software for
Software Solutions. Inc.         VAX/VMS Computer Systems
Idaho Falls, Idaho

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:48:35 +0100
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:48:25 -0500
From: trn@waea.trn.nu
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
Message-ID: <19981206154825.A19998@waea.trn.nu>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
References: <2.2.16.19981203184820.274fa574@earthlink.net> <19981206164838.A605@klamath.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK
In-Reply-To: <19981206164838.A605@klamath.demon.co.uk>; from Edward John M. Brocklesby on Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 04:48:38PM +0000


--YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 04:48:38PM +0000, Edward John M. Brocklesby wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 04:43:15PM -0800, David J. Dachtera wrote:
> >
> > At 03:56 PM 12/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
> > >I would be willing to do this, if someone can point me to a
> > >VMS System Call reference ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >=20
> > Noah,
> >=20
> > Try the documentation page on Richard's FreeVMS site. He has links to .=
PDF
> > versions of the System Services and Utility routines manuals.
> >=20
> > Let me know if you need a .PDF reader for VMS. I know where to get a fa=
irly
> > decent one, but I'll need to look at work for it.
>=20
> I'd not mind helping both of you here .. any idea if there's a PDF reader
> for UNIX? (Linux/68k).
>

There is XPDF and Adobe Acrobat available for Unix.  Check for Acrobat at
www.adobe.com (it runs on my Linux/68k box using vMac, but slowly) and XPDF
at http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/.  XPDF renders rather ugly, and it sometimes
produces broken PS files that Ghostscript has problems printing. :(

I believe that the latest Ghostview+Ghostscript will also view/print PDF.=
=20

> >=20
> > David J. Dachtera
> > dba DJE Systems
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Edward John M. Brocklesby
> System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System
>=20
> | Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
> | Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key



--=20
Jeff Johnson - http://scrollz.trn.nu, trn@trn.nu

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:43:16 +0100
Message-ID: <19981207184256.A17579@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:42:56 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
References: <2.2.16.19981203184820.274fa574@earthlink.net> <19981206164838.A605@klamath.demon.co.uk> <19981206154825.A19998@waea.trn.nu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <19981206154825.A19998@waea.trn.nu>; from trn@waea.trn.nu on Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:48:25PM -0500


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On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:48:25PM -0500, trn@waea.trn.nu wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 04:48:38PM +0000, Edward John M. Brocklesby wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 04:43:15PM -0800, David J. Dachtera wrote:
> > >
> > > At 03:56 PM 12/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
> > > >I would be willing to do this, if someone can point me to a
> > > >VMS System Call reference ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >=20
> > > Noah,
> > >=20
> > > Try the documentation page on Richard's FreeVMS site. He has links to=
 .PDF
> > > versions of the System Services and Utility routines manuals.
> > >=20
> > > Let me know if you need a .PDF reader for VMS. I know where to get a =
fairly
> > > decent one, but I'll need to look at work for it.
> >=20
> > I'd not mind helping both of you here .. any idea if there's a PDF read=
er
> > for UNIX? (Linux/68k).
> >
>=20
> There is XPDF and Adobe Acrobat available for Unix.  Check for Acrobat at
> www.adobe.com (it runs on my Linux/68k box using vMac, but slowly) and XP=
DF
> at http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/.  XPDF renders rather ugly, and it someti=
mes
> produces broken PS files that Ghostscript has problems printing. :(
>=20
> I believe that the latest Ghostview+Ghostscript will also view/print PDF.=
=20

Thanks, I used the Debian package of XPDF. Do you know why they are
distributed as PDF, and not just text?

> --=20
> Jeff Johnson - http://scrollz.trn.nu, trn@trn.nu



--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:03:16 +0100
Message-ID: <19981207214205.A21705@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:42:05 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: VAX accounts [was Re: wendin pcvms]
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981205211850.2235B-100000@gandolf.ma.ultranet.com> <366A2254.2BE8EF34@guntersville.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary=HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD
In-Reply-To: <366A2254.2BE8EF34@guntersville.net>; from John C. Ellingboe on Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:21:08AM -0600


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On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:21:08AM -0600, John C. Ellingboe wrote:
> Noah Paul wrote:
> >=20
> > (about the MicroVax): Could I get an account on it? I'm in search of a =
VAX
> > to use. I need to learn more VMS and test the code I write for it.
>=20
> I will be puting a VAX online for the use of The Free VMS Project
> sometime soon.  I am sure that we can setup an account for you and any
> others that will need it.  It may be that I can have a mVAX II for
> general use and another for software testing.  I will post to the list
> when it is ready for use.

Hey, could I have one too? I have a university one but it's really, really
slow and makes it hard to do anything. And it has no GCC (or ircII :).


--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

--HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:08:47 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:35:44 -0600
Message-ID: <0001CDBB.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re[2]: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

   Folks,
   
   I think I can address this question (see below):
   
   The answer is because as found on Digital's web site 
   (freely downloadable) the documentation inquestion 
   appears as .PS files. I downloaded the PostScript and 
   "distilled" it to .PDF with my registered version of 
   Adobe Acrobat on DOS/WFW.
   
   The XPDF kit includes a PDFTOTEXT program. I haven't 
   tried it, so I can't say what you'll get. It may be worth 
   a try, although much of the formatting (pagination, etc.) 
   and all of the graphics may be lost.
   
   Some us (myself included) have rather a bad taste in our 
   mouths re: Micro$haft. However, Whine-Doze may be viewed 
   (IMHO) as a necessary evil. Much of the documentation 
   provided in an on-line form is in .PDF files or HTML. So, 
   unless you have a robust DECwindows/OpenVMS environment 
   on your VAX/Alpha workstation (or Xwindows/UN*X), you may 
   well need to run Whine-Doze on Intel as well as a *REAL* 
   operating system (I do - see the page on my web site at 
   http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/win/win3xzip.html to 
   see just how crazy you can actually get with it).
   
   David J. Dachtera
   dba DJE Systems
   


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
Author:  Free-VMS@lp.se at PO_EXTERNET
Date:    12/7/98 12:42 PM


On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:48:25PM -0500, trn@waea.trn.nu wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 04:48:38PM +0000, Edward John M. Brocklesby wrote: 
> > On Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 04:43:15PM -0800, David J. Dachtera wrote:
> > >
> > > At 03:56 PM 12/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
> > > >I would be willing to do this, if someone can point me to a 
> > > >VMS System Call reference ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Noah,
> > > 
> > > Try the documentation page on Richard's FreeVMS site. He has links to .PDF
> > > versions of the System Services and Utility routines manuals.
> > > 
> > > Let me know if you need a .PDF reader for VMS. I know where to get a 
fairly
> > > decent one, but I'll need to look at work for it. 
> > 
> > I'd not mind helping both of you here .. any idea if there's a PDF reader 
> > for UNIX? (Linux/68k).
> >
> 
> There is XPDF and Adobe Acrobat available for Unix.  Check for Acrobat at
> www.adobe.com (it runs on my Linux/68k box using vMac, but slowly) and XPDF 
> at http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/.  XPDF renders rather ugly, and it sometimes 
> produces broken PS files that Ghostscript has problems printing. :(
> 
> I believe that the latest Ghostview+Ghostscript will also view/print PDF. 
   
Thanks, I used the Debian package of XPDF. Do you know why they are 
distributed as PDF, and not just text?
   
> -- 
> Jeff Johnson - http://scrollz.trn.nu, trn@trn.nu
   
   
   
-- 
   
Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System
   
| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org 
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key
   
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:03:16 +0100
Message-ID: <19981208200253.B21705@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:02:53 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[2]: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
References: <0001CDBB.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary=cmJC7u66zC7hs+87
In-Reply-To: <0001CDBB.C21492@advocatehealth.com>; from David Dachtera on Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:35:44AM -0600


--cmJC7u66zC7hs+87
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On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:35:44AM -0600, David Dachtera wrote:
>    Folks,
>   =20
>    I think I can address this question (see below):
[snip]
>    Some us (myself included) have rather a bad taste in our=20
>    mouths re: Micro$haft. However, Whine-Doze may be viewed=20
>    (IMHO) as a necessary evil. Much of the documentation=20
>    provided in an on-line form is in .PDF files or HTML. So,=20
>    unless you have a robust DECwindows/OpenVMS environment=20
>    on your VAX/Alpha workstation (or Xwindows/UN*X), you may=20
>    well need to run Whine-Doze on Intel as well as a *REAL*=20
>    operating system (I do - see the page on my web site at=20
>    http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/win/win3xzip.html to=20
>    see just how crazy you can actually get with it).

I'm  glad to say that I've never installed a Microsoft OS in my entire life.
I've stood and looked over the shoulders of people instaling them,  but I've
never installed one myself. And, I've never owned a computer that has either
an Intel arch CPU or a Microsoft OS on it. And I'm proud of it :)

If you're interested, I've got an Amiga 1200 (mc68030) with Debian Linux/68k
on it, and an AT&T 3B1 (mc68010) with UNIX System V Release 2.0.

--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

--cmJC7u66zC7hs+87
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:44:01 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:31:31 -0600
Message-ID: <0001D919.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX)
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

   Well, another option you might look into would be 
   Ghostview for viewing .PS files on your screen. You can 
   obtain the PostScript files for the V6.2 doc. set on the 
   Digital web site at the following URL:
   
   http://www.partner.digital.com/www-swdev/pages/Home/TECH/
   documents/vms-docs-v6.2.html
   
   Sorry - that wrapped, but it's longer than 80 bytes. That 
   page has links to the .PS files which differ from the 
   V6.1 doc. set. The complete V6.1 doc. set can be found in 
   .PS format at:
   
   http://www.partner.digital.com/www-swdev/pages/Home/TECH/
   documents/vms-docs-v6.1.html
   
   V6.1 is the highest version allowed under the Hobbyist 
   license.
   
   Re: Micro$haft
   
   I'm working on setting up a Linux workstation at home 
   (DECpc 450-ST - Intel inside, sorry), complete with 
   Xwindows and StarOffice. I'm anxious to see how well a 
   non-MS desktop can be made to work, in the hope that I 
   can help find a way to make it as marketable as 
   MicroSlop, hopefully more.
   
   David J. Dachtera
   dba DJE Systems
   


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
Author:  Free-VMS@lp.se at PO_EXTERNET
Date:    12/8/98 2:02 PM


On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:35:44AM -0600, David Dachtera wrote: 
>    Folks,
>    
>    I think I can address this question (see below): 
[snip]
>    Some us (myself included) have rather a bad taste in our 
>    mouths re: Micro$haft. However, Whine-Doze may be viewed 
>    (IMHO) as a necessary evil. Much of the documentation 
>    provided in an on-line form is in .PDF files or HTML. So, 
>    unless you have a robust DECwindows/OpenVMS environment 
>    on your VAX/Alpha workstation (or Xwindows/UN*X), you may 
>    well need to run Whine-Doze on Intel as well as a *REAL* 
>    operating system (I do - see the page on my web site at 
>    http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/win/win3xzip.html to 
>    see just how crazy you can actually get with it).
   
I'm  glad to say that I've never installed a Microsoft OS in my entire life. 
I've stood and looked over the shoulders of people instaling them,  but I've 
never installed one myself. And, I've never owned a computer that has either 
an Intel arch CPU or a Microsoft OS on it. And I'm proud of it :)
   
If you're interested, I've got an Amiga 1200 (mc68030) with Debian Linux/68k 
on it, and an AT&T 3B1 (mc68010) with UNIX System V Release 2.0.
   
-- 
   
Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System
   
| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org 
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key
   
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:32:17 +0100
Message-ID: <19981209183139.A32323@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:31:39 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX)
References: <0001D919.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary=OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG
In-Reply-To: <0001D919.C21492@advocatehealth.com>; from David Dachtera on Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 05:31:31PM -0600


--OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 05:31:31PM -0600, David Dachtera wrote:
>    V6.1 is the highest version allowed under the Hobbyist=20
>    license.

The hobbyist license is cool. Do you have to be a member of the VMS
user group to use it?

>   =20
>    Re: Micro$haft
>   =20
>    I'm working on setting up a Linux workstation at home=20
>    (DECpc 450-ST - Intel inside, sorry), complete with=20
>    Xwindows and StarOffice. I'm anxious to see how well a=20
>    non-MS desktop can be made to work, in the hope that I=20
>    can help find a way to make it as marketable as=20
>    MicroSlop, hopefully more.

I don't quite understand this - I mean, surely it's obvious that a non-MS
desktop will work _much_ better? :) If you start to miss windows, try
installing KDE. (Well, I thought it was Windows to start with :)

Actually, that's a good point. If we get X working on Free-VMS, should we
make a program like WINE, but for UNIX/X?

--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

--OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:35:29 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981209133540.007a17b0@pop.ultranet.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:35:40 -0800
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: noahp@altavista.net
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX))
In-Reply-To: <0001D919.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

(about linux):
I use Linux almost exclusively at home. However, my monitor is so crap
X windows can't display anything worth looking at. Other than that, it
has not disappointed me in any way. I haven't looked back. If you need
any help with anything, send me mail.

At 05:31 PM 12/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>   Well, another option you might look into would be 
>   Ghostview for viewing .PS files on your screen. You can 
>   obtain the PostScript files for the V6.2 doc. set on the 
>   Digital web site at the following URL:
>   
>   http://www.partner.digital.com/www-swdev/pages/Home/TECH/
>   documents/vms-docs-v6.2.html
>   
>   Sorry - that wrapped, but it's longer than 80 bytes. That 
>   page has links to the .PS files which differ from the 
>   V6.1 doc. set. The complete V6.1 doc. set can be found in 
>   .PS format at:
>   
>   http://www.partner.digital.com/www-swdev/pages/Home/TECH/
>   documents/vms-docs-v6.1.html
>   
>   V6.1 is the highest version allowed under the Hobbyist 
>   license.
>   
>   Re: Micro$haft
>   
>   I'm working on setting up a Linux workstation at home 
>   (DECpc 450-ST - Intel inside, sorry), complete with 
>   Xwindows and StarOffice. I'm anxious to see how well a 
>   non-MS desktop can be made to work, in the hope that I 
>   can help find a way to make it as marketable as 
>   MicroSlop, hopefully more.
>   
>   David J. Dachtera
>   dba DJE Systems
>   
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX
>Author:  Free-VMS@lp.se at PO_EXTERNET
>Date:    12/8/98 2:02 PM
>
>
>On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:35:44AM -0600, David Dachtera wrote: 
>>    Folks,
>>    
>>    I think I can address this question (see below): 
>[snip]
>>    Some us (myself included) have rather a bad taste in our 
>>    mouths re: Micro$haft. However, Whine-Doze may be viewed 
>>    (IMHO) as a necessary evil. Much of the documentation 
>>    provided in an on-line form is in .PDF files or HTML. So, 
>>    unless you have a robust DECwindows/OpenVMS environment 
>>    on your VAX/Alpha workstation (or Xwindows/UN*X), you may 
>>    well need to run Whine-Doze on Intel as well as a *REAL* 
>>    operating system (I do - see the page on my web site at 
>>    http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/win/win3xzip.html to 
>>    see just how crazy you can actually get with it).
>   
>I'm  glad to say that I've never installed a Microsoft OS in my entire life. 
>I've stood and looked over the shoulders of people instaling them,  but I've 
>never installed one myself. And, I've never owned a computer that has either 
>an Intel arch CPU or a Microsoft OS on it. And I'm proud of it :)
>   
>If you're interested, I've got an Amiga 1200 (mc68030) with Debian Linux/68k 
>on it, and an AT&T 3B1 (mc68010) with UNIX System V Release 2.0.
>   
>-- 
>   
>Edward John M. Brocklesby
>System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System
>   
>| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org 
>| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key
>   
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:25:22 +0100
Message-ID: <19981209192501.B6387@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:25:01 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX))
References: <0001D919.C21492@advocatehealth.com> <3.0.6.32.19981209133540.007a17b0@pop.ultranet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981209133540.007a17b0@pop.ultranet.com>; from noahp@altavista.net on Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:35:40PM -0800


--K8nIJk4ghYZn606h
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On Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:35:40PM -0800, noahp@altavista.net wrote:
> (about linux):
> I use Linux almost exclusively at home. However, my monitor is so crap
> X windows can't display anything worth looking at. Other than that, it

Hehe, it can't be worse than my 640x480 interlaced in .. 16 colours :)
But I'm hoping for a better monitor.

Why is X even needed, most of the time? ..

--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

--K8nIJk4ghYZn606h
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:49:14 +0100
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19981209195928.00918e68@snake.srv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:59:28 -0700
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation         Library for UNIX))

At 07:25 PM 12/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>On Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:35:40PM -0800, noahp@altavista.net wrote:
>> (about linux):
>> I use Linux almost exclusively at home. However, my monitor is so crap
>> X windows can't display anything worth looking at. Other than that, it
>
>Hehe, it can't be worse than my 640x480 interlaced in .. 16 colours :)
>But I'm hoping for a better monitor.
>
>Why is X even needed, most of the time? ..

Because solitare using text graphics is ugly. :=)

And the text version of Quake (yes, it really does exist
http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake/ ) is really ugly.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Handy  kth@srv.net         Accounting Software for
Software Solutions. Inc.         VAX/VMS Computer Systems
Idaho Falls, Idaho

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:03:19 +0100
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19981209201333.00916f90@snake.srv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:13:33 -0700
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX)

At 06:31 PM 12/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 05:31:31PM -0600, David Dachtera wrote:
>>    V6.1 is the highest version allowed under the Hobbyist 
>>    license.
>
>The hobbyist license is cool. Do you have to be a member of the VMS
>user group to use it?

I believe you  just need to be a member of decus.
>
>>    
>>    Re: Micro$haft
>>    
>>    I'm working on setting up a Linux workstation at home 
>>    (DECpc 450-ST - Intel inside, sorry), complete with 
>>    Xwindows and StarOffice. I'm anxious to see how well a 
>>    non-MS desktop can be made to work, in the hope that I 
>>    can help find a way to make it as marketable as 
>>    MicroSlop, hopefully more.

I think that it is rapidly starting to catch up to MS's
'user friendly'ness, with each new release of Linux.
Every new version I've installed have asked me fewer of
those 'geek' type of questions, where you need to know
Unix to answer. It also does much more in less memory than
any MS offering, at a much lower cost.

>
>I don't quite understand this - I mean, surely it's obvious that a non-MS
>desktop will work _much_ better? :) If you start to miss windows, try
>installing KDE. (Well, I thought it was Windows to start with :)
>
>Actually, that's a good point. If we get X working on Free-VMS, should we
>make a program like WINE, but for UNIX/X?

If you design it from the start to be able to run Linux/Unix apps
(posix interfasce and all that jazz) then you should be able to take
the code and just use it. I'd think Unix capability should be something
that is designed in from the start, just to give access to a huge base
of free programs.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Handy  kth@srv.net         Accounting Software for
Software Solutions. Inc.         VAX/VMS Computer Systems
Idaho Falls, Idaho

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:17:36 +0100
To: <free-vms@lp.se>
Subject: Re: wendin pcvms
Message-ID: <LEVITTE.98Dec9211229@nic.bofh.se>
From: levitte@lp.se (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: 09 Dec 1998 20:12:28 GMT
References: <3.0.6.32.19981201175530.007b2a50@pop.ultranet.com>
In-Reply-To: noahp@altavista.net's message of Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:55:30 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

In article <3.0.6.32.19981201175530.007b2a50@pop.ultranet.com> noahp@altavista.net writes:

   Any chance this can get on Richard's ftp site? Richard?

Yes, if someone hands me a copy, I'll put it on-line.

[Sorry guys for the late reaction.  I've been hamering a dealine with
 impossible odds, and have thusly hardly been able to follow all the
 traffic in my mailbox/newsserver]

-- 
R Levitte, Levitte Programming;  Spannv. 38, I;  S-168 35  Bromma;  SWEDEN
   Tel: +46-8-26 52 47;  Cell: +46-708-20 09 64;  Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
  PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24  BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
 http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key.  levitte@lp.se

          "price, performance, quality.  Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:37:32 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:14:09 -0600
Message-ID: <0001EA52.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re[2]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS E
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

   Re: Help?
   
   Well, what I'll beating my head against the hardest is 
   the system startup, somehow working around the fact that 
   UN*X is, by design, a multi-user o.s.
   
   If the world-at-large can ever be expected to embrace a 
   Linux desktop instead of MS, it's *GOTTA* at least "look 
   and feel" familiar. That means its *GOTTA* come up (from 
   "cold") to something that, at least, looks and feels like 
   the Win/3x or Win/9x desktop - no "Login:" prompts. (User 
   = default?)
   
   Other than that, there's the "look and feel" issues of 
   StarOffice, which is much further beyond my control, but 
   so far appears to be the only viable contender to oppose 
   MS/Orifice (Office).
   
   Any ideas/help would be appreciated, but this is starting 
   to go into a subject area beyond the scope of this 
   mailing list. So, feel free to address me directly at 
   djesys@earthlink.net, and we'll continue this outside of 
   this list.
   
   David J. Dachtera
   dba DJE Systems
   http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/
   djesys@earthlink.net


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emul
Author:  Free-VMS@lp.se at PO_EXTERNET
Date:    12/9/98 3:35 PM


(about linux):
I use Linux almost exclusively at home. However, my monitor is so crap 
X windows can't display anything worth looking at. Other than that, it 
has not disappointed me in any way. I haven't looked back. If you need 
any help with anything, send me mail.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:52:13 +0100
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19981210180215.006b7690@snake.srv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:02:15 -0700
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[2]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS E

At 05:14 PM 12/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>   Re: Help?
>   
>   Well, what I'll beating my head against the hardest is 
>   the system startup, somehow working around the fact that 
>   UN*X is, by design, a multi-user o.s.
>   
>   If the world-at-large can ever be expected to embrace a 
>   Linux desktop instead of MS, it's *GOTTA* at least "look 
>   and feel" familiar. That means its *GOTTA* come up (from 
>   "cold") to something that, at least, looks and feels like 
>   the Win/3x or Win/9x desktop - no "Login:" prompts. (User 
>   = default?)

My Winders system comes up with a username/password screen
every time I turn it on. xdm startup should be OK for most
people. If thay cannot figure out the username prompt, I
would suggest leaving them with windows.

>   Other than that, there's the "look and feel" issues of 
>   StarOffice, which is much further beyond my control, but 
>   so far appears to be the only viable contender to oppose 
>   MS/Orifice (Office).

There is ApplixWare[sp?].

There is also Coral WordPerfect, which they (are creating)/(have
created) a naitve Linux port. From what I have read, the Linux
single user version (WordPerfect Only, not the Office stuff)
will be available free. If you want more (Office, multiple users,
documentation) you will have to pay for it. [Note: this is from
my understanding of what is on Coral's web site, and may be wrong]

>   Any ideas/help would be appreciated, but this is starting 
>   to go into a subject area beyond the scope of this 
>   mailing list. So, feel free to address me directly at 
>   djesys@earthlink.net, and we'll continue this outside of 
>   this list.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Handy  kth@srv.net         Accounting Software for
Software Solutions. Inc.         VAX/VMS Computer Systems
Idaho Falls, Idaho

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:24:51 +0100
Message-ID: <19981210202425.D10835@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:24:25 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[2]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS E
References: <0001EA52.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary=WChQLJJJfbwij+9x
In-Reply-To: <0001EA52.C21492@advocatehealth.com>; from David Dachtera on Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 05:14:09PM -0600


--WChQLJJJfbwij+9x
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 05:14:09PM -0600, David Dachtera wrote:
>    Re: Help?
>   =20
>    Well, what I'll beating my head against the hardest is=20
>    the system startup, somehow working around the fact that=20
>    UN*X is, by design, a multi-user o.s.
>   =20
>    If the world-at-large can ever be expected to embrace a=20
>    Linux desktop instead of MS, it's *GOTTA* at least "look=20
>    and feel" familiar. That means its *GOTTA* come up (from=20
>    "cold") to something that, at least, looks and feels like=20
>    the Win/3x or Win/9x desktop - no "Login:" prompts. (User=20
>    =3D default?)

But that's good if different family members want different logins. And it's
a _massive_ security hole to have a default unpassworded user .. you'd have
to make special version of each distribution.

On that note, I really, really HATE RedHat. Why? The default X installation
uses FVWM95! That really gets me. I mean, what's the point of having a good
OS if you're just going to use the stupid and inefficient Win95 UI?

>    Other than that, there's the "look and feel" issues of=20
>    StarOffice, which is much further beyond my control, but=20
>    so far appears to be the only viable contender to oppose=20
>    MS/Orifice (Office).

Yeah .. I've never used it (doesn't run here), but it sounds pretty cool.

>    Any ideas/help would be appreciated, but this is starting=20
>    to go into a subject area beyond the scope of this=20
>    mailing list. So, feel free to address me directly at=20
>    djesys@earthlink.net, and we'll continue this outside of=20
>    this list.

Off topic rules :)

>    David J. Dachtera
>    dba DJE Systems
>    http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/
>    djesys@earthlink.net


Actually, I think people forget that Linux isn't the only choice. There's
Net/Open/Free(spit)BSD, Minix, OpenVMS 6.2, and so on  ..  it's just that
Linux gets most media coverage, which is a shame.


--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

--WChQLJJJfbwij+9x
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:33:45 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981210163401.007aeb10@pop.ultranet.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:34:01 -0800
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: noahp@altavista.net
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX)
In-Reply-To: <19981209183139.A32323@klamath.demon.co.uk>
References: <0001D919.C21492@advocatehealth.com> <0001D919.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I think you need to be a DECUS member.

At 06:31 PM 12/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 05:31:31PM -0600, David Dachtera wrote:
>>    V6.1 is the highest version allowed under the Hobbyist 
>>    license.
>
>The hobbyist license is cool. Do you have to be a member of the VMS
>user group to use it?

>
>>    
>>    Re: Micro$haft
>>    
>>    I'm working on setting up a Linux workstation at home 
>>    (DECpc 450-ST - Intel inside, sorry), complete with 
>>    Xwindows and StarOffice. I'm anxious to see how well a 
>>    non-MS desktop can be made to work, in the hope that I 
>>    can help find a way to make it as marketable as 
>>    MicroSlop, hopefully more.
>
>I don't quite understand this - I mean, surely it's obvious that a non-MS
>desktop will work _much_ better? :) If you start to miss windows, try
>installing KDE. (Well, I thought it was Windows to start with :)
>
>Actually, that's a good point. If we get X working on Free-VMS, should we
>make a program like WINE, but for UNIX/X?
>
>-- 
>
>Edward John M. Brocklesby
>System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System
>
>| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
>| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key
>
>Attachment Converted: "c:\eudoran\attach\Re Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re VMS "
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:34:41 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981210163458.007a95a0@pop.ultranet.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:34:58 -0800
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: noahp@altavista.net
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation         Library for UNIX))
In-Reply-To: <19981209192501.B6387@klamath.demon.co.uk>
References: <3.0.6.32.19981209133540.007a17b0@pop.ultranet.com> <0001D919.C21492@advocatehealth.com> <3.0.6.32.19981209133540.007a17b0@pop.ultranet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Same thing I've got. I don't really need X, but I wish I could use
Netscape and a PDF reader (among other things)

At 07:25 PM 12/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>On Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:35:40PM -0800, noahp@altavista.net wrote:
>> (about linux):
>> I use Linux almost exclusively at home. However, my monitor is so crap
>> X windows can't display anything worth looking at. Other than that, it
>
>Hehe, it can't be worse than my 640x480 interlaced in .. 16 colours :)
>But I'm hoping for a better monitor.
>
>Why is X even needed, most of the time? ..
>
>-- 
>
>Edward John M. Brocklesby
>System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System
>
>| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
>| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key
>
>Attachment Converted: "c:\eudoran\attach\Re non-MS Desktops (was Re Sy"
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:14:49 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:47:04 -0600
Message-ID: <0001FD18.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
From: David.Dachtera@advocatehealth.com (David Dachtera)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

   >But that's good if different family members want 
   >different logins. 
   
   What if they don't? (My guess is most of 'em won't)
   
   >And it's a _massive_ security hole to 
   >have a default unpassworded user .. 
   
   Is it really, though? If file protections are set 
   correctly... Here's where UN*X's feature poverty REALLY 
   rises to the surface: no "privileges" as in VMS, it's all 
   (superuser) or nothing (UIC-based file protections, 
   little or nothing more).
   
   ...and is this any worse than allowing MS-DOS windows on 
   a Win/9x machine with only the "default" user profile?
   
   >you'd have to make 
   >special version of each distribution.
   
   Why?
   
   >Actually, I think people forget that Linux isn't the 
   >only choice. There's Net/Open/Free(spit)BSD, ...
   
   I'd probably limit my efforts to FreeBSD and OpenLinux 
   Base from Caldera. Both have some fairly well done 
   installation programs, though Caldera's may be better 
   than FreeBSD's. This is important because you'd want to 
   include the vendor's original install media with each 
   machine going out the door. I'm going to look at OpenBSD 
   also and see where their install process is at compared 
   to the others. Prob'ly look at NetBSD's, also, since they 
   have an Alpha (AXP) version. I've read that FreeBSD has 
   been ported to Alpha, but have not yet found a 
   distribution for the Alpha version.
   
   Red Hat + FVWM95 is probably Red Hat's effort to do 
   exactly what we're discussing here: make it look like 
   something that's already out there en masse.
   
   David J. Dachtera
   dba DJE Systems
   http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/
   djesys@earthlink.net
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:40:00 +0100
From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <199812110139.UAA12828@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:39:03 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <0001FD18.C21492@advocatehealth.com> from "David Dachtera" at Dec 10, 98 05:47:04 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> 
>    >But that's good if different family members want 
>    >different logins. 
>    
>    What if they don't? (My guess is most of 'em won't)

Well, then you have just one set of netscape bookmarks.
My daughter wouldn't like my 40 or so FreeBSD/Linux/VAX/VMS/PDP11 ones.

>    
>    >And it's a _massive_ security hole to 
>    >have a default unpassworded user .. 

Not if the default one was unpriviledged.

>    
>    Is it really, though? If file protections are set 
>    correctly... Here's where UN*X's feature poverty REALLY 
>    rises to the surface: no "privileges" as in VMS, it's all 
>    (superuser) or nothing (UIC-based file protections, 
>    little or nothing more).

Not true.  You could do one group per user which is almost ACL-Like.
The main problem in Unix is no-installed images.

>    
>    >Actually, I think people forget that Linux isn't the 
>    >only choice. There's Net/Open/Free(spit)BSD, ...
>    
>    I'd probably limit my efforts to FreeBSD and OpenLinux 
>    Base from Caldera. Both have some fairly well done 
>    installation programs, though Caldera's may be better 
>    than FreeBSD's. This is important because you'd want to 
>    include the vendor's original install media with each 
>    machine going out the door. I'm going to look at OpenBSD 
>    also and see where their install process is at compared 
>    to the others. Prob'ly look at NetBSD's, also, since they 
>    have an Alpha (AXP) version. I've read that FreeBSD has 
>    been ported to Alpha, but have not yet found a 
>    distribution for the Alpha version.

The alpha Alpha version... It's not on CD yet but it may be ready for that
by the next version.

>    
>    Red Hat + FVWM95 is probably Red Hat's effort to do 
>    exactly what we're discussing here: make it look like 
>    something that's already out there en masse.

Which is why I use that setup for some folks at work.  They know the toolbar
and start button. (Ugh.)

I prefer the CDE look and feel, myself.

>    
>    David J. Dachtera
>    dba DJE Systems
>    http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/
>    djesys@earthlink.net
> 

Bill Pechter

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        |
|   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in  |
|  a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                         | 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:07:53 +0100
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:09:19 +1100
From: "Scott Hamilton, +61-2-9950 1693, NSW Dept Education and Training" <SHAMILTON1@dev.develop1.tafensw.edu.au>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <01J57NYD69360007CP@hmgwy1.isd.tafensw.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

> 
>    >But that's good if different family members want 
>    >different logins. 
>    
>    What if they don't? (My guess is most of 'em won't)

Well, then you have just one set of netscape bookmarks.
My daughter wouldn't like my 40 or so FreeBSD/Linux/VAX/VMS/PDP11 ones.

	This is also a function of netscape, check out the Netscape Profile 
manager
	(under the Netscape item in your Start menu on Win95)
	Even after you turn on multiple profiles under Win95 you can
	still share Netscape characteristics or have Netscape Profiles
	as well!!!!


	Scott, Esq.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "I C more clearly now my                  N.S.W. Dept Education and Training
  brain has gone."                         Information Technology Bureau
                                           Technical Architecture team
  w: +61-2-9950 1693    shamilton1@dev.develop1.tafensw.edu.au  
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:23:17 +0100
From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <199812111422.JAA27156@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:22:08 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <01J57NYD69360007CP@hmgwy1.isd.tafensw.edu.au> from "Scott Hamilton, +61-2-9950 1693, NSW Dept Education and Training" at Dec 11, 98 01:09:19 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> 
> > 
> >    >But that's good if different family members want 
> >    >different logins. 
> >    
> >    What if they don't? (My guess is most of 'em won't)
> 
> Well, then you have just one set of netscape bookmarks.
> My daughter wouldn't like my 40 or so FreeBSD/Linux/VAX/VMS/PDP11 ones.
> 
> 	This is also a function of netscape, check out the Netscape Profile 
> manager
> 	(under the Netscape item in your Start menu on Win95)
> 	Even after you turn on multiple profiles under Win95 you can
> 	still share Netscape characteristics or have Netscape Profiles
> 	as well!!!!
> 
> 
> 	Scott, Esq.
> 

This does NOT exist on Linux, FreeBSD or other multiuser machine which
is why they use user logon id's for that.

Bill

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        |
|   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in  |
|  a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                         | 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:49:58 +0100
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:50:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
In-Reply-To: <01J57NYD69360007CP@hmgwy1.isd.tafensw.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981211164945.1081B-100000@gandolf.ma.ultranet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

You mean there are people who don't like PDP-11s? :) 

-----------------
Regards,
Noah Paul <noahp@altavista.net>
	"They're just jealous because they don't have three wise men
and a virgin in the whole organization." - Mayor Vincent J. Cicani on the 
	ACLU's suit to remove a city nativity scene.

PGP Public Key: 		http://130.64.182.90/~noahp/Public_Key
4096-bit Public Key:		http://130.64.182.90/~noahp/Public_Key.4096

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Scott Hamilton, +61-2-9950 1693, NSW Dept Education and Training wrote:

> > 
> >    >But that's good if different family members want 
> >    >different logins. 
> >    
> >    What if they don't? (My guess is most of 'em won't)
> 
> Well, then you have just one set of netscape bookmarks.
> My daughter wouldn't like my 40 or so FreeBSD/Linux/VAX/VMS/PDP11 ones.
> 
> 	This is also a function of netscape, check out the Netscape Profile 
> manager
> 	(under the Netscape item in your Start menu on Win95)
> 	Even after you turn on multiple profiles under Win95 you can
> 	still share Netscape characteristics or have Netscape Profiles
> 	as well!!!!
> 
> 
> 	Scott, Esq.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  "I C more clearly now my                  N.S.W. Dept Education and Training
>   brain has gone."                         Information Technology Bureau
>                                            Technical Architecture team
>   w: +61-2-9950 1693    shamilton1@dev.develop1.tafensw.edu.au  
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:37:38 +0100
Message-ID: <19981213143713.A1069@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:37:13 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: VMS Emulation Library for UNIX)
References: <1.5.4.32.19981209201333.00916f90@snake.srv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW"
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981209201333.00916f90@snake.srv.net>; from Kevin Handy on Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:13:33PM -0700


--0F1p//8PRICkK4MW
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On Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:13:33PM -0700, Kevin Handy wrote:
> At 06:31 PM 12/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 05:31:31PM -0600, David Dachtera wrote:
> >>    V6.1 is the highest version allowed under the Hobbyist=20
> >>    license.
> >
> >The hobbyist license is cool. Do you have to be a member of the VMS
> >user group to use it?
>=20
> I believe you  just need to be a member of decus.

Shame I can't run it :)
> >Actually, that's a good point. If we get X working on Free-VMS, should we
> >make a program like WINE, but for UNIX/X?
>=20
> If you design it from the start to be able to run Linux/Unix apps
> (posix interfasce and all that jazz) then you should be able to take
> the code and just use it. I'd think Unix capability should be something
> that is designed in from the start, just to give access to a huge base
> of free programs.

We could have, a POSIX library. And if we use ELF, we're all set.

> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin Handy  kth@srv.net         Accounting Software for
> Software Solutions. Inc.         VAX/VMS Computer Systems
> Idaho Falls, Idaho
>=20

--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
(Former) System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

Bugger, must change this sig some day ..


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--0F1p//8PRICkK4MW--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:01:17 +0100
Message-ID: <19981213160057.A2592@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:00:57 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
References: <0001FD18.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary=gKMricLos+KVdGMg
In-Reply-To: <0001FD18.C21492@advocatehealth.com>; from David Dachtera on Thu, Dec 10, 1998 at 05:47:04PM -0600


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On Thu, Dec 10, 1998 at 05:47:04PM -0600, David Dachtera wrote:
>    >But that's good if different family members want=20
>    >different logins.=20
>   =20
>    What if they don't? (My guess is most of 'em won't)
>   =20
>    >And it's a _massive_ security hole to=20
>    >have a default unpassworded user ..=20
>   =20
>    Is it really, though? If file protections are set=20

telnet, etc, and loads of programs are setup assuming a secure system.

>    correctly... Here's where UN*X's feature poverty REALLY=20
>    rises to the surface: no "privileges" as in VMS, it's all=20
>    (superuser) or nothing (UIC-based file protections,=20
>    little or nothing more).
>   =20
>    ...and is this any worse than allowing MS-DOS windows on=20
>    a Win/9x machine with only the "default" user profile?

Is Windows a good model for how we should do things?

>    >you'd have to make=20
>    >special version of each distribution.
>   =20
>    Why?

So that it could install by default with no security.

>    >Actually, I think people forget that Linux isn't the=20
>    >only choice. There's Net/Open/Free(spit)BSD, ...
>   =20
>    I'd probably limit my efforts to FreeBSD and OpenLinux=20
>    Base from Caldera. Both have some fairly well done=20
>    installation programs, though Caldera's may be better=20
>    than FreeBSD's. This is important because you'd want to=20
>    include the vendor's original install media with each=20
>    machine going out the door. I'm going to look at OpenBSD=20

And you'd want the OS to be installed by the vendor.

>    also and see where their install process is at compared=20
>    to the others. Prob'ly look at NetBSD's, also, since they=20
>    have an Alpha (AXP) version. I've read that FreeBSD has=20

NetBSD's install is cool. As long as you know what you are doing.

>    been ported to Alpha, but have not yet found a=20
>    distribution for the Alpha version.
>   =20
>    Red Hat + FVWM95 is probably Red Hat's effort to do=20
>    exactly what we're discussing here: make it look like=20
>    something that's already out there en masse.

That's evil, then. I'll have to remember never to run RedHat.

It'll just confuse users, if it looks the same but acts differently.

>    David J. Dachtera
>    dba DJE Systems
>    http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/
>    djesys@earthlink.net

--=20

Edward John M. Brocklesby
(Former) System Administrator, Klamath Public Access Unix System

| Data: +44 1865 454802 | Free-VMS - Expand your mind - www.free-vms.org
| Free UNIX Accounts    | Finger ejb@deep-thought.ml.org for PGP key

--gKMricLos+KVdGMg
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:29:47 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981213153003.007a2100@pop.ultranet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:30:03 -0800
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: noahp@altavista.net
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
In-Reply-To: <0001FD18.C21492@advocatehealth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 05:47 PM 12/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>   >But that's good if different family members want 
>   >different logins. 
>   
>   What if they don't? (My guess is most of 'em won't)
>
	Well, when I was a kid, I wouldn't have wanted to have that kind of
	thing. I'd see it as an invasion of privacy. (But this is offtopic)
>   
>   >And it's a _massive_ security hole to 
>   >have a default unpassworded user .. 
>   
>   Is it really, though? If file protections are set 
>   correctly... Here's where UN*X's feature poverty REALLY 
>   rises to the surface: no "privileges" as in VMS, it's all 
>   (superuser) or nothing (UIC-based file protections, 
>   little or nothing more).
>   
>   ...and is this any worse than allowing MS-DOS windows on 
>   a Win/9x machine with only the "default" user profile?
>   
>   >you'd have to make 
>   >special version of each distribution.
>   
>   Why?
>   
>   >Actually, I think people forget that Linux isn't the 
>   >only choice. There's Net/Open/Free(spit)BSD, ...
>   
>   I'd probably limit my efforts to FreeBSD and OpenLinux 
>   Base from Caldera. Both have some fairly well done 
>   installation programs, though Caldera's may be better 
>   than FreeBSD's. This is important because you'd want to 
>   include the vendor's original install media with each 
>   machine going out the door. I'm going to look at OpenBSD 
>   also and see where their install process is at compared 
>   to the others. Prob'ly look at NetBSD's, also, since they 
>   have an Alpha (AXP) version. I've read that FreeBSD has 
>   been ported to Alpha, but have not yet found a 
>   distribution for the Alpha version.
>   
>   Red Hat + FVWM95 is probably Red Hat's effort to do 
>   exactly what we're discussing here: make it look like 
>   something that's already out there en masse.
>   
>   David J. Dachtera
>   dba DJE Systems
>   http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/
>   djesys@earthlink.net
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:58:24 +0100
To: <free-vms@lp.se>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
Message-ID: <LEVITTE.98Dec14014526@nic.bofh.se>
From: levitte@lp.se (Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker)
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: 14 Dec 1998 00:45:26 GMT
References: <199812110139.UAA12828@shell.monmouth.com>
In-Reply-To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter's message of Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:39:03 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

In article <199812110139.UAA12828@shell.monmouth.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com> writes:

   >    >And it's a _massive_ security hole to 
   >    >have a default unpassworded user .. 

   Not if the default one was unpriviledged.

GNU hurd does that.  TOPS-20 did that.  In both cases, you always
start with finding yourself as the default, very unpriviledged (only a
few commands worked, and you got a very specialised HELP section),
user.  To become some kind of real user, you type "login" (at least in
hurd.  I do not remember how it works with TOPS-20).

I wonder, however, how this applies to (Free-)VMS?  Does anyone think
we will have that kind of setup?  That would diverge quite a lot from
the original, in many more ways than you might first think of.


-- 
R Levitte, Levitte Programming;  Spannv. 38, I;  S-168 35  Bromma;  SWEDEN
   Tel: +46-8-26 52 47;  Cell: +46-708-20 09 64;  Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
  PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24  BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
 http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key.  levitte@lp.se

          "price, performance, quality.  Choose any two you like"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:21:59 +0100
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 05:17:39 +0300
From: Anton Konashenok <kona@mail.cl.spb.ru>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <3220.981214@mail.cl.spb.ru>
To: Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker <Free-VMS@lp.se>
Subject: Re[6]: non-MS Desktops
References: <LEVITTE.98Dec14014526@nic.bofh.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

RL>    Not if the default one was unpriviledged.

RL> GNU hurd does that.  TOPS-20 did that.  In both cases, you always
RL> start with finding yourself as the default, very unpriviledged (only a
RL> few commands worked, and you got a very specialised HELP section),
RL> user.  To become some kind of real user, you type "login" (at least in
RL> hurd.  I do not remember how it works with TOPS-20).

As far as I remember, RSX-11M did exactly the same. You had 3 commands
at your disposal: LOGIN, LOGOUT (or was it BYE?) and HELP.

RL> I wonder, however, how this applies to (Free-)VMS?  Does anyone think
RL> we will have that kind of setup?  That would diverge quite a lot from
RL> the original, in many more ways than you might first think of.

The main difference seems to be in that in VMS CLI is attached AFTER
login, whereas in RSX it was BEFORE (i.e. attached to the terminal
line, not the user).

Anton


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 05:22:37 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.19981213222556.39af26a4@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:25:56
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
In-Reply-To: <LEVITTE.98Dec14014526@nic.bofh.se>
References: <Bill/Carolyn Pechter's message of Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:39:03 -0500             (EST)> <199812110139.UAA12828@shell.monmouth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Richard, et al,

Sorry - this off-topic thread got started as a result of some of my
comments. Someone asked about System Services doc.'s, someone else asked
why they're provided on your ftp server as .PDFs, I inserted a comment
about common on-line doc. formats tending to include PDF, HTML and little
else, that led to a discussion of common desktop environments, which led to
a comparison of MS Vs. Linux et al, ... 

Actually, no one (AFAIK) is proposing a change from the usual VMS
interface(s). We just got started talking about Linux, Win/9x, etc., one
message led to another and, well, here we are.

Sorry. I'll try to hold down on my "chatter". I suggested to one respondent
that we continue this thread privately, but it's too easy for me to just
hit "Reply" rather than composing/addressing a message from scratch.

Mea culpa.

David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/

At 12:45 AM 12/14/98 GMT, Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote:
>In article <199812110139.UAA12828@shell.monmouth.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter
<pechter@shell.monmouth.com> writes:
>
>   >    >And it's a _massive_ security hole to 
>   >    >have a default unpassworded user .. 
>
>   Not if the default one was unpriviledged.
>
>GNU hurd does that.  TOPS-20 did that.  In both cases, you always
>start with finding yourself as the default, very unpriviledged (only a
>few commands worked, and you got a very specialised HELP section),
>user.  To become some kind of real user, you type "login" (at least in
>hurd.  I do not remember how it works with TOPS-20).
>
>I wonder, however, how this applies to (Free-)VMS?  Does anyone think
>we will have that kind of setup?  That would diverge quite a lot from
>the original, in many more ways than you might first think of.
>
>
>-- 
>R Levitte, Levitte Programming;  Spannv. 38, I;  S-168 35  Bromma;  SWEDEN
>   Tel: +46-8-26 52 47;  Cell: +46-708-20 09 64;  Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
>  PGP key fingerprint = 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24  BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
> http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key.  levitte@lp.se
>
>          "price, performance, quality.  Choose any two you like"
>
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:55:16 +0100
Message-ID: <3675374A.90C51CB6@srv.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:05:31 -0700
From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: non-MS Desktops
References: <LEVITTE.98Dec14014526@nic.bofh.se> <3220.981214@mail.cl.spb.ru>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Anton Konashenok wrote:

> RL>    Not if the default one was unpriviledged.
>
> RL> GNU hurd does that.  TOPS-20 did that.  In both cases, you always
> RL> start with finding yourself as the default, very unpriviledged (only a
> RL> few commands worked, and you got a very specialised HELP section),
> RL> user.  To become some kind of real user, you type "login" (at least in
> RL> hurd.  I do not remember how it works with TOPS-20).
>
> As far as I remember, RSX-11M did exactly the same. You had 3 commands
> at your disposal: LOGIN, LOGOUT (or was it BYE?) and HELP.
>
> RL> I wonder, however, how this applies to (Free-)VMS?  Does anyone think
> RL> we will have that kind of setup?  That would diverge quite a lot from
> RL> the original, in many more ways than you might first think of.
>
> The main difference seems to be in that in VMS CLI is attached AFTER
> login, whereas in RSX it was BEFORE (i.e. attached to the terminal
> line, not the user).

RSTS/E at one time allowed several commands before login, but it wasremoved in
later versions (HELLO, BYE, SYSTAT, HELP if I remember correctly).
As I understand, it was because of all of the security holes (esp. SYSTAT).


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:13:12 +0100
Message-ID: <19981214195738.A7871@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:57:38 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: Re[4]: non-MS Desktops (was Re: Sys Svcs Docs (Was Re: V
References: <199812110139.UAA12828@shell.monmouth.com> <LEVITTE.98Dec14014526@nic.bofh.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <LEVITTE.98Dec14014526@nic.bofh.se>; from Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:45:26AM +0000


--NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh
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On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:45:26AM +0000, Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wro=
te:
> In article <199812110139.UAA12828@shell.monmouth.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechte=
r <pechter@shell.monmouth.com> writes:
>=20
>    >    >And it's a _massive_ security hole to=20
>    >    >have a default unpassworded user ..=20
>=20
>    Not if the default one was unpriviledged.
>=20
> GNU hurd does that.  TOPS-20 did that.  In both cases, you always

GNU Hurd sounds really cool .. I wish I had some Intel hardware now :)

> start with finding yourself as the default, very unpriviledged (only a
> few commands worked, and you got a very specialised HELP section),
> user.  To become some kind of real user, you type "login" (at least in
> hurd.  I do not remember how it works with TOPS-20).

I think I'll implement this on my Linux box :)

> I wonder, however, how this applies to (Free-)VMS?  Does anyone think
> we will have that kind of setup?  That would diverge quite a lot from
> the original, in many more ways than you might first think of.

We could have an option.  The key word here is 'Flexibility'. (And possibly
'spelling-mistake, too').  We could have it as an option, set via some nice
configuration utility. (Similar to the one all SysV UNIX's except mine seem
to have ..)

>=20
> --=20
> R Levitte, Levitte Programming;  Spannv. 38, I;  S-168 35  Bromma;  SWEDEN
>    Tel: +46-8-26 52 47;  Cell: +46-708-20 09 64;  Fax: +46-708-20 06 13
>   PGP key fingerprint =3D 35 3E 6C 9E 8C 97 85 24  BD 9F D1 9E 8F 75 23 6B
>  http://richard.levitte.org/pubkey2.asc for my public key.  levitte@lp.se
>=20
>           "price, performance, quality.  Choose any two you like"

On a kind of related note, what work is going on on Free-VMS? Most import-
antly, is anyone hacking on the kernel?

--=20
this sig under construction.

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:55:42 +0100
Message-ID: <19981214204224.B8700@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:42:24 +0000
From: "Edward John M. Brocklesby" <ejb@klamath.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: free-vms@lp.se
Subject: XPDF doesn't read Richard's OpenVMS docs
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi,

Yeah - it says something about, the export version has no encryption.
Does this mean the docs are encrypted - _why_? Is it possible to read
them at all?

(these are the ones from Richard's www.free-vms.org page)

--=20
                                            this sig under construction=20

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:58:38 +0100
From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Message-ID: <199812141957.OAA05350@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: non-MS Desktops
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:57:23 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <3675374A.90C51CB6@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Dec 14, 98 09:05:31 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> RSTS/E at one time allowed several commands before login, but it wasremoved in
> later versions (HELLO, BYE, SYSTAT, HELP if I remember correctly).
> As I understand, it was because of all of the security holes (esp. SYSTAT).
> 
> 
> 


I thought it would allow run $MONEY and allow you to use the accounting
program to set passwords from the console until v7.2 or so.

Bill

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        |
|   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in  |
|  a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                         | 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:26:09 +0100
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:25:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Jerrold Leichter <leichter@smarts.com>
Reply-To: Free-VMS@lp.se
To: Free-VMS@lp.se
Subject: Re: non-MS Desktops
In-Reply-To: <199812141957.OAA05350@shell.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.02A.9812141513090.3703-100000@just>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

| > RSTS/E at one time allowed several commands before login, but it wasremoved in
| > later versions (HELLO, BYE, SYSTAT, HELP if I remember correctly).
| > As I understand, it was because of all of the security holes (esp. SYSTAT).

It was a long-standing tradition in DEC OS's to let you run SYSTAT without
logging in.  TOPS-10 certainly had that feature, and I'll bet it was not the
first.

BTW, on all the systems I'm aware of, a logged-out SYSTAT did *not* run as a
non-privileged user - it ran with full privileges.  This was no big deal,
because SYSTAT had to run with privileges anyway, just as SHOW SYSTEM on VMS
has to run with WORLD to be able to see all processes.  (The earlier OS's
didn't have fine-grained privileges - it was all-or-nothing.)

HELLO simply ran the login program (which of course had to be privileged.  In
fact, by relying on the fact that non-logged-in programs ran with privilege,
you didn't have to "install th